Taiwan

[Wolfhound]

72.5% would defend their country, huh? In an anonymous poll? Wow.

I wouldn't recommend they publicize that stat...

Only 55% of Americans say they would stay and fight if the United States were invaded. Unbelievable huh? The numbers for Taiwan are way better.

52% of Democrats say they would run like scared rabbits and leave the country.

Majority of Republicans and independents would fight for America if invaded: Poll - Washington Examiner

A majority of residents in the United States would stay and defend their country if invaded by another country, according to a poll released on Monday.The poll, conducted by Quinnipiac University, surveyed 1,374 adults across from March 4-6. A majority of those surveyed who identified as...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

 

[Twangbanger]

Are you saying that's a little, or a lot?

For comparison,

"What percentage of the colonists were Patriots?

According to Robert Calhoon, between 40 and 45 percent of the white population in the Thirteen Colonies supported the Patriots' cause, between 15 and 20 percent supported the Loyalists, and the remainder were neutral or kept a low profile."

.

I would find it a little, well, concerning if over a quarter of Taiwan's population wouldn't fight an invasion.

The example of the colonies is not really about an invasion, so it's not a linear comparison. The patriots were in essence the aggressors seeking to change the status quo. It's always hard to get people to stand up and take that initiative. If you're trying to draw some sort of equivalence between the two, the 40~45% of patriot colonists would be saying, "We're sick of the ChiComs shxt, let's get up a group and teach them a lesson." I don't see anywhere near that number of Taiwanese saying anything like that. The Taiwan statistic is saying that if someone came to their shores and crapped on their status quo, more than a quarter would just roll with it.

Look, I like Taiwan as much as anyone, and would like to see them independent, too. I basically hate the Chinese government. I'm simply saying the ROC'ers are an elevated version of the Afghans. They aren't worth it. They value their prosperity in hegemony with mainland China, more than they value Independence. It's pointless for the US to value that concept more than they do.

Only 55% of Americans say they would stay and fight if the United States were invaded. Unbelievable huh? The numbers for Taiwan are way better.

Majority of Republicans and independents would fight for America if invaded: Poll - Washington Examiner

A majority of residents in the United States would stay and defend their country if invaded by another country, according to a poll released on Monday.The poll, conducted by Quinnipiac University, surveyed 1,374 adults across from March 4-6. A majority of those surveyed who identified as...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

So to keep the conversation focused here: should Taiwan come to our aid?

 

[Wolfhound]

So to keep the conversation focused here: should Taiwan come to our aid?

Why should they? We are basically an elevated version of Afghanistan. We aren't worth it. Half of our own population would run like rabbits.

Seriously though, I don't have all the answers. Wish I did.

 

[mmpsteve]

I would find it a little, well, concerning if over a quarter of Taiwan's population wouldn't fight an invasion.

The example of the colonies is not really about an invasion, so it's not a linear comparison. The patriots were in essence the aggressors seeking to change the status quo. It's always hard to get people to stand up and take that initiative. If you're trying to draw some sort of equivalence between the two, the 40~45% of patriot colonists would be saying, "We're sick of the ChiComs shxt, let's get up a group and teach them a lesson." I don't see anywhere near that number of Taiwanese saying anything like that. The Taiwan statistic is saying that if someone came to their shores and crapped on their status quo, more than a quarter would just roll with it.

Look, I like Taiwan as much as anyone, and would like to see them independent, too. I basically hate the Chinese government. I'm simply saying the ROC'ers are an elevated version of the Afghans. They aren't worth it. They value their prosperity in hegemony with mainland China, more than they value Independence. It's pointless for the US to value that concept more than they do.



So to keep the conversation focused here: should Taiwan come to our aid?

That's cool. No offense intended. Was just trying to clarify what your position was, as to the 75% figure.

.

 

[Twangbanger]

Why should they? We are basically an elevated version of Afghanistan. We aren't worth it. Half of our own population would run like rabbits.

Seriously though, I don't have all the answers. Wish I did.

I do too. I would love nothing more than to see an Independent Taiwan in the strait, thumbing its nose at China, and with the U.S. having maintained the position to be able to actually do something about it if China interfered. I had a ton of college friends from Taiwan.

The problem, as Sheep pointed out above, is that the U.S. changed its position on Taiwan, because we wanted to curry favor with China in our Hatfield-McCoy rivalry with Russia. At one time, we genuinely believed Russia was such a baddie, it was worth literally anything to oppose them. We scooted China's direction, away from Taiwan, to try to gain an ally against Russia. That was very short-sighted.

If we really loved Taiwan independence, we shouldn't have built up their enemy.

America has already made its decision on Taiwan. It has just taken many of us a very long time to realize it. I am not happy about this. Taiwan is D. O. N. E. Done, son. Finish your coffee and walk away. They speak the same language as their enemy. They will be ok. At least, in the sense that Hong Kong is ok (just, with fewer whiny expats pissing and moaning about the loss of their favorite noodle shop and apartment view overlooking the harbor).

Everybody knows the dice are loaded,
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed,
Everybody knows the war is over,
Everybody knows the good guys lost.

Everybody knows.

(-Concrete Blonde)

The Taiwanese know, too. They know you can't trust Uncle Sugar.

 

[Twangbanger]

PS - after everyone processes that, I'll take you out in the hall and whisper something in your ear about Ukraine...(American made up our mind a long time ago on that one, too).

 

[SheepDog4Life]

72.5% would defend their country, huh? In an anonymous poll? Wow.

I wouldn't recommend they publicize that stat...

Hmmm... better than the 55% of Americans.

Washington Times | Poll: If U.S. were attacked, 38% say they would flee country

 

[snapping turtle]

We .

).

Everybody knows the dice are loaded,
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed,
Everybody knows the war is over,
Everybody knows the good guys lost.

Everybody knows.

(Everybody knows the dice are loaded,
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed,
Everybody knows the war is over,
Everybody knows the good guys lost.

Everybody knows.

(-Concrete Blonde)

Written and recorded by Leonard Cohen · 1988. Covered much better by concrete blonde 1990

 

[BugI02]

I do too. I would love nothing more than to see an Independent Taiwan in the strait, thumbing its nose at China, and with the U.S. having maintained the position to be able to actually do something about it if China interfered. I had a ton of college friends from Taiwan.

You would have to provide them with a survivable, significant nuclear strike capability to do it. The disparity of forces is too great for any other strategy to serve as a deterrent

And this has always been true since at least the end of the Cultural Revolution

 

[BugI02]

Everybody knows the dice are loaded,
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed,
Everybody knows the war is over,
Everybody knows the good guys lost.

Everybody knows.

That'a a Leonard Cohen song, written in 1986-7, released in '88 on I'm Your Man

 

[jwamplerusa]

They value their prosperity in hegemony with mainland China, more than they value Independence. It's pointless for the US to value that concept more than they do.

^^^^ This right here!

Why Ukraine is worth supporting (and no, I don't mean the open spigot of my money as it's being done now), but other places not so much. The Ukrainians stood and fought. I can respect that and want to support it. I knew all I needed to know when the President of Ukraine stayed as did his family, and he stated he didn't need a ride he needed resources. How many of you would have done different? (I would probably try to get my family to safety, but at this juncture I would probably be told "No, We're staying".)

The penchant of the U.S. to want to "Nation Build" post WW2 is frankly irrational. It doesn't work, other places are NOT melting pots, in most locales we have tried it the tribalism has far out weighed our efforts to "democratize" and "Nation Build". For the non-WW events, going in and kicking a**, hard really hard, breaking the things which need broken and killing those who need killed then quickly moving on is a far better use of my tax dollars.

 

[Leadeye]

I get the feeling that America is being stretched thin by Russia and China, much like the USSR was tretched thin by the US in the 80s.

 

[smokingman]

Today 8/5/2022

US orders aircraft carrier to stay near Taiwan as Chinese planes and ships deploy near the island and missiles fly in response to Pelosi's visit

Taiwan's defense ministry said China's military sent 68 aircraft and 13 ships to participate in military drills around the Taiwan Strait on Friday.

www.businessinsider.com

Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin ordered that the "USS Ronald Reagan and the ships in her strike group will remain on station in the general area to monitor the situation," White House National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby said at a Thursday briefing.

"We will conduct standard air and maritime transits through the Taiwan Strait in the next few weeks, consistent, again, with our longstanding approach to defending the freedom of the seas and international law," he added. "And, we will take further steps to demonstrate our commitment to the security of our allies in the region."

This ends badly.
Can you imagine every Chinese flagged ship turning back to China? The port of Los Angeles would be empty.

 

[BugI02]

I hope they're not stupid enough to take that an irreplaceable asset like that carrier through the strait. Might be too tempting a target to resist

 

[areamike]

Only 55% of Americans say they would stay and fight if the United States were invaded. Unbelievable huh? The numbers for Taiwan are way better.

52% of Democrats say they would run like scared rabbits and leave the country.

Majority of Republicans and independents would fight for America if invaded: Poll - Washington Examiner

A majority of residents in the United States would stay and defend their country if invaded by another country, according to a poll released on Monday.The poll, conducted by Quinnipiac University, surveyed 1,374 adults across from March 4-6. A majority of those surveyed who identified as...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

Polls are dumb. Since when does 1,374 adults represent ALL Americans?

 

[BigRed]

CBO estimate was 90 million for her and security. That is likely a very low estimate.(*includes the 6.5 mil per day for the aircraft carrier group shadowing her).

Another waste of funds rendered by force from American people.

 

[Quiet Observer]

CBO estimate was 90 million for her and security. That is likely a very low estimate.(*includes the 6.5 mil per day for the aircraft carrier group shadowing her).

Would it cost more or less money if the carrier group sailed off to some other position? If the cost is the same, then it is neither a reason to justify or condemn her silly trip.

 

[printcraft]

Would it cost more or less money if the carrier group sailed off to some other position? If the cost is the same, then it neither a reason to justify or condemn her silly trip.

Takes them off regular mission to protect one "vip" instead of the normal broader plan.
E.g.
Sending and ambulance for a drug user that is ODing for the 10th time, meanwhile a dad that is having a heart attack can't get to the hospital because rescue is tied up with that ********.

 

[smokingman]

We do not know the cause of death yet.

Taiwan’s Defence Ministry Deputy Head Found Dead In Hotel Room​

Taiwan’s defence ministry deputy head found dead in hotel room

Taipei: Amidst escalating military tension between China and Taiwan, the latter’s defense ministry’s deputy head Ou Yang Li-hsing was found dead in a hotel room on Saturday morning. The body of Ou Yang Li-hsing, who served as the deputy head of military-owned National Chung-Shan Institute of...

sambadenglish.com

 

[Wolfhound]

We do not know the cause of death yet.

Taiwan’s Defence Ministry Deputy Head Found Dead In Hotel Room​

Taiwan’s defence ministry deputy head found dead in hotel room

Taipei: Amidst escalating military tension between China and Taiwan, the latter’s defense ministry’s deputy head Ou Yang Li-hsing was found dead in a hotel room on Saturday morning. The body of Ou Yang Li-hsing, who served as the deputy head of military-owned National Chung-Shan Institute of...

sambadenglish.com

I wonder if he had dirt on the Clintons.