Tactical Decision Game - ATM Attack

[JimFloyd]

Copyright 2009 by James M. Floyd, Jr. All rights reserved.

Tactical Decision Games (TDG) are utilized by the military and public safety agencies as a low tech, yet effective, means of experiencing and discussing the practical application of decision making skills to situations.

Below is a TDG I created to stimulate your thinking. To participate, please read the TDG, and then make your decision, based only on the (intentionally limited) information provided, within 10 seconds. Then post a reply stating your decision and your rationale.

The goal of a TDG is not to seek "the only" or "the correct" answer but instead is intended to create a social learning environment, so please do not hesitate to participate.

Here is the scenario:

ATM Attack

TIME: 1:17 p.m.

PLACE: Freestanding walk up ATM machine

WEATHER: Sunny, 68 degrees Fahrenheit

LIGHTING: Sunlight

SITUATION: You are a legally armed citizen who has stopped at a freestanding, walk-up ATM machine to obtain some cash. As you pull your cash from the machine, an attacker wearing a ski mask suddenly approaches you with a pistol in his hand and demands your money. As you hand the money to the assailant, he suddenly shoots you in your dominant arm. You fall to the ground as your arm bleeds heavily. The assailant now wants your wallet and watch and is threatening to kill you.

What is your selected course of action? Make a decision within the next 10 seconds.

 

[ATM]

ATM Attack

They just picked the wrong damn ATM.

 

[clt46910]

I reach for my wallet with my left hand but instead pull my back-up Smith Mod 60 from the small of my back and empty it into the middle of his chest.

 

[Goodcat]

Whether it would be self defense or not is obviously not even a question. My immediate thought was so ok, I don't have a back up weapon on my left so grab my wallet and/or watch and throw them for him so he he has to bend down to pick them up and try a left handed draw. At this point I would realize he more than likely would shoot me a second time no questions asked anyways.

After carefully thinking about it afterwards, I think it would be safest, though risky, to just hope not to be shot again, then pop one in his back while he walks away. ("he had already shot me and pointed his gun over his head at me while walking away so I shot"

 

[Flintlock]

Give him the watch first, then the wallet, while he fumbling with the wallet and my hand is still near my gun, pull and load him with lead. He's already shot you once and most likely is going to finish the job. I'm going to fight while I still can.

 

[jennybird]

First of all, never use a walk-up ATM. I would also have to believe that someone savvy enough to be a "legally armed citizen" would be paying more attention to their surroundings. This situation could be stopped before it begins.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Give him the wallet and watch. I'm definitely in a vunerable position, and he's got the advantage. After giving the wallet and watch, he'll likely turn to flee.

If there are no other by standers in the area:

I will attempt to shoot as he flees with whatever hand is still functioning. Even if I don't get a kill shot, I'm hoping to wound / slow the guy down. Start calling for help and hope that the gunshot has already alerted others to the situation.

If I'm in a crowded area:

No fire, but yell for help and hope one of my fellow law abiding citizens helps me, and also stops the perp.

 

[jeremy]

Why not make your strike when you are handing him the money. Grabbing his weapon hand to secure it, and striking with your other hand. Just asking.

 

[Coach]

I wanted to throw the cash on the ground on demand and shoot the bastard in the triangle of death at that point. Ski mask accompanied by demands for money made my light green.

I doubt that I can get my gun out of the holster with my weak hand. Which identifies a problem. I also agree with jennybird above. Could have been avoided a number of ways.

 

[RogerB]

First of all, never use a walk-up ATM. I would also have to believe that someone savvy enough to be a "legally armed citizen" would be paying more attention to their surroundings. This situation could be stopped before it begins.

I wanted to throw the cash on the ground on demand and shoot the bastard in the triangle of death at that point. Ski mask accompanied by demands for money made my light green.

I doubt that I can get my gun out of the holster with my weak hand. Which identifies a problem. I also agree with jennybird above. Could have been avoided a number of ways.

My first thought was what do I have in my hands RIGHT NOW when the money was demanded. I think I would have complied but instead of handing the money over submissively, it would have been thrown into the persons face as a distraction, then hand to hand combat would have been engaged. Granted I say thats what "I would do", but I know thats what the sporadic training I've had over the years would be on my mind. There would be alot of factors possibly preventing me from following through with what I "think" I would do. Thats my ten seconds....distract, disarm, inflict disabling injury if possible.

Post ten seconds...I agree with what Jennybird and Coach mentioned.

 

[dburkhead]

First, I agree with Jennybird and RogerB: I seriously doubt I would have let it get this far, but let's go with it.

My primary gun is carried IWB at 4-5:00 and it just so happens my wallet is in my hip pocket. Since my right arm is now "useless" and hanging slack (whether it is or not, it will be, if you know what I mean) I have to reach back with my left to go for the wallet, why there's the gun quite easy to reach and grasp left handed "palm out" (a draw I've practiced, BTW).

Oh, did I mention that I practice shooting one handed right, both hands with right dominant, both hands with left dominant, and one handed left on a regular basis, and I have an ambi safety on my 1911.

And we're back to Denny Crane.

 

[indyjoe]

My first thought was what do I have in my hands RIGHT NOW when the money was demanded. I think I would have complied but instead of handing the money over submissively, it would have been thrown into the persons face as a distraction, then hand to hand combat would have been engaged.

I do not agree with the hand to hand combat. I would have been giving the cash with my weak hand, after switching if necessary. Close distance as I give it to him. Control his firearm away from my body. Draw from strong side close in and start shooting. As a rule, I do not use ATMs that are at edges of building or near any place that can provide concealment. Generally, I use an ATM from the car with the car in gear and ready for leaving the situation rapidly if required. They can take my $200 daily limit on my card if they want. I am leaving dodge.

 

[RogerB]

I do not agree with the hand to hand combat. I would have been giving the cash with my weak hand, after switching if necessary. Close distance as I give it to him. Control his firearm away from my body. Draw from strong side close in and start shooting. As a rule, I do not use ATMs that are at edges of building or near any place that can provide concealment. Generally, I use an ATM from the car with the car in gear and ready for leaving the situation rapidly if required. They can take my $200 daily limit on my card if they want. I am leaving dodge.

I can see your point and even agree with it to a point. But I know the training I've had in close hand to hand far outweighs what little to no training I've had in pistol fighting.

Frankly if I'm in a situation where a would be attacker and myself are within touching distance....I personally would feel more at ease with attempting to control the aim point of his firearm and quickly inflicting a distracting/disabling injury.

But thats just me and what my training experience would dictate. I gotta go with what I know, just as I would expect you or anyone else would do.

I forgot to recognise ATM's comment too...."you picked the wrong ATM"..while funny, it is also the truth.

Its good that we can mentally hash through a scenario such as this... reps to Jim.

 

[dburkhead]

I can see your point and even agree with it to a point. But I know the training I've had in close hand to hand far outweighs what little to no training I've had in pistol fighting.

Frankly if I'm in a situation where a would be attacker and myself are within touching distance....I personally would feel more at ease with attempting to control the aim point of his firearm and quickly inflicting a distracting/disabling injury.

But thats just me and what my training experience would dictate. I gotta go with what I know, just as I would expect you or anyone else would do.

I forgot to recognise ATM's comment too...."you picked the wrong ATM"..while funny, it is also the truth.

Its good that we can mentally hash through a scenario such as this... reps to Jim.

When the other person is armed, particularly with a firearm, hand to hand is almost always a really really bad idea. And I say this as a martial artist myself. Most martial arts that deal with "defense against knife" or "defense against gun" aren't generally well tested. Techniques that "work" in demos, or with a cooperative partner, don't work as well against vigorous resistance.

For example, in defense against a knife, try the following: Give your partner a stick of sidewalk chalk. Offer him $10 (or so) for every mark he makes on your body. You can limit that to "vital areas" (so long as you include all vital areas, including anywhere large or numerous blood vessels are present, such as the inside of the arms. Try to stop him. The results can be an eye opener.

Something similar can be done with airsoft or paintball (with proper safety precautions). Again, the results can be quite illuminating.

The cash, BTW, is to make sure that your partner is not going to be inclined to go with whatever "disarm" or "control" technique you are using and will actually try to evade/stop the technique.

Sometimes they'll work. And, as it happens, the people telling the "it happened to me" stories will be the ones where it did work--because the people where it didn't work are generally not around to tell that story. But unarmed defense against armed attacker is really only something one should be forced into from desperation, not a first choice, and then only to the extent necessary to put a weapon into action.

 

[Joe Williams]

Try to draw and shoot with weak arm, hopefully while he thinks I'm reaching for a wallet.

If it weren't for the gunshot already being fired, I'd just give up the wallet. Trying to outdraw a drawn gun is a losing proposition. But his decision to fire without provocation causes me to be convinced he's going to kill me anyway, so desperate measures are called for.

 

[RogerB]

When the other person is armed, particularly with a firearm, hand to hand is almost always a really really bad idea. And I say this as a martial artist myself. Most martial arts that deal with "defense against knife" or "defense against gun" aren't generally well tested. Techniques that "work" in demos, or with a cooperative partner, don't work as well against vigorous resistance.

For example, in defense against a knife, try the following: Give your partner a stick of sidewalk chalk. Offer him $10 (or so) for every mark he makes on your body. You can limit that to "vital areas" (so long as you include all vital areas, including anywhere large or numerous blood vessels are present, such as the inside of the arms. Try to stop him. The results can be an eye opener.

Something similar can be done with airsoft or paintball (with proper safety precautions). Again, the results can be quite illuminating.

The cash, BTW, is to make sure that your partner is not going to be inclined to go with whatever "disarm" or "control" technique you are using and will actually try to evade/stop the technique.

Sometimes they'll work. And, as it happens, the people telling the "it happened to me" stories will be the ones where it did work--because the people where it didn't work are generally not around to tell that story. But unarmed defense against armed attacker is really only something one should be forced into from desperation, not a first choice, and then only to the extent necessary to put a weapon into action.

Understood and respected...

here's to hoping it never happens in the first place.

 

[dburkhead]

Understood and respected...

here's to hoping it never happens in the first place.

Amen and pass the ammunition.

 

[techres]

Give him the wallet and watch. IF he is close, engage with a knife, maybe we can both go to hell together. Otherwise, I am probably screwed.

Now, let me say this: when I am at an ATM I use only my left hand because my right is on my 642 and I am scanning around me. Even if he approached me fast, I would expect I could get one shot off before the strong arm was hit.

 

[Rookie]

My BUG is my weak side pocket for a reason. I would "nervously" drop the money with the hope that he is distracted. One thing that I really like about my BUG is that, since it's a pocket gun, I always have a hand on a gun. This is very useful for parking lots, ATMs, stores, etc...

 

[The Meach]

Sorry, If I'm Down hurt and he's already on the trigger. I'd Beg.

whatever the guy wants, And i remind him i didn't see his face. And I remind him they investigate murders much more thoroughly than robberies. But in this case. You've got no chance other than if he gets distracted to Run like Hell