Something I found related to a couple of current-ish threads

[iChokePeople]

[video=youtube;W9fvkvU4cjQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9fvkvU4cjQ[/video]

Discuss.

 

[bradmedic04]

Somehow I imagine you just sitting around watching videos of people getting choked all day, but can't figure out why I think that.

 

[rhino]

Keeping in mind that this topic is way outside of my areas of experience . . . here are some of my initial thoughts.

1. The general concept that the police officers in question (and most people in general) were unprepared for this event and anything substantially similar can't really be refuted.
2. They (and most people in general) need more training, both in terms of diversity as well as depth.
3. When people work in teams, they need to work in teams.
4. I've never seen (or considered) methodical approaches to two people trying to subdue one person. I suspect this is very important for prison guards more than anyone else.
5. The needs of someone working as an agent of the state for enforcing laws are substantially different than those of someone like me who just wants to live his life unmolested. For instance, I recognize the need to subdue the person with minimal force for those acting as police officers or even as private security. However, I am not bound by those same rules and I think it would potentially fatal (to me) to try in the moment to gauge just how much force is needed (both in type and intensity) to just barely subdue someone with minimal injury. If I'm threatened, I will choose the means for the given situation that are most likely to ensure my safety. Period. If my life or safety is threatened and I have the opportunity to stop the threat as quickly as possible, I will do so. The well being of someone who attacks me is not an issue until after the threat ends.
6. The amount of training (instruction + practice + evaluation + conditioning + confidence + awareness + etc.) seems to be enormous in order to be able to assess and take such actions in the context of metering the amount of force necessary. I know some very useful principles can be learned and a small set of techniques can be mastered well enough work well in most situations, but I'm unconvinced that worrying over the least amount of force necessary is going to be helpful in a survival situation even for police officers. Given that, it seems like what the speaker was stressing was more pertinent to the initial stages of the encounter and pre-planning rather than after the officers were embroiled in what seemed to be a life or death struggle (until the guy chose to let them go and leave).
7. I watched some additional videos of the jiujitsu sparring. I can think if few activities that would appeal to me less. I recognize the value, but at this point in my life it's not possible to do most of that and more importantly, I recognize that I would not even try.
8. The people who are less physically capable of resisting and retreating (combining all factors such as skills, physical condition, strength, size, etc.) are those most in need of 1) preparation, 2) tools that will help them accommodate those limitations, and 3) the skills, awareness, and knowledge to use the tools effectively as well as when to use them. Ideally police officers do not fall into this category, but it's likely that some do, whether they recognize it or not.

 

[iChokePeople]

All very good thoughts. And I do like videos of people getting choked.

 

[iChokePeople]

A couple of points that popped for me:

1. Neither of those LEOs wanted a ground fight. Probably the other guy didn't, either.
2. Sort of LEO-specific, but people die unnecessarily because that's the only tool in the other guy's bag. I generally agree with rhino about the differences there for most of us, but with the caveat that I might not have such an easy time convincing a prosecutor or jury that I feared for my life and needed to use lethal force. I think I need other options.

 

[rhino]

A couple of points that popped for me:

1. Neither of those LEOs wanted a ground fight. Probably the other guy didn't, either.
2. Sort of LEO-specific, but people die unnecessarily because that's the only tool in the other guy's bag. I generally agree with rhino about the differences there for most of us, but with the caveat that I might not have such an easy time convincing a prosecutor or jury that I feared for my life and needed to use lethal force. I think I need other options.

In your case, absolutely. You have options that most other people lack for a variety of reasons. In 25 years, it might be a different story.

 

[iChokePeople]

In your case, absolutely. You have options that most other people lack for a variety of reasons. In 25 years, it might be a different story.

In 25 years, I'll finally be GOOD on the ground.

 

[OutdoorDad]

In the video, "the worst thing that could happen" would be for the police to pull their weapon and shoot the suspect.

Since this is the UK, that's not likely. Far more likely the suspect pull out a meat cleaver and hack them both to death.
Leathal force sucks. Not having it as an option sucks worse.

 

[obijohn]

I'm in agreement with Rhino and to a great degree with ICP. As I age and the arthritis, etc. progresses, my options become more limited. Go to the ground? I am dead. All the more reason to hang out with ICP and Rhino. ICP will hold them steady so Rhino can get a good shot.

Seriously, as your training progresses as your age does, knowing your physical limitations is important. Being able to articulate those limitations and your reason for your response in an incident will be the key to your freedom.

 

[Jackson]

I think if this happened in the US someone would have been shot or Tazed. If it were the same two officers, it would probably have been one of them who was shot. There seemed to be a lack of aggression and decisiviness from those two. They appeared to give up quickly. However, I expect an officer shooting a subject who has his hand on the officer's throat would be justifiable here. So I disagree with Renner about the use of force decisions.

Now, I am not saying I would have done any better. I routinely lose during training in similar situations. This is why I keep going back.

 

[iChokePeople]

I understand your point and you're not wrong, but hindsight shows us that this guy didn't need to be shot. I missed what the stop was about, so I need to go back and see that, and maybe I'm just getting softer as I get older, but IMHO shooting that guy would have been tragic. Hopefully they can find the guy (have they already? dunno.) and give him an appropriate punishment for resisting arrest, etc, but personally, I'm glad he didn't get shot. Taser, that's all good, just a little electricity between friends. Justifiable isn't necessarily synonymous with right or necessary.

Tell me the truth, do you think I should look into testosterone supplements? I think I'm getting way too soft lately.

 

[Jackson]

If you want to really look good in that skirt, you may want to hold off on the T.

And hindsight is great, but not a luxury either of these officers had in the situation. It started out as a friendly resisting arrest situation, but it ended with two officers being controlled and subdued. It would not be a stretch in any sense to articulate that it appeared this guy may cause serious bodily harm or death after he had his hand around the male officer's throat and was totally unconcerned with the female officer's attempts to intervene. If the two officers had pistols he could have had free and relatively unhindered access to it. The officer's couldn't have known his intentions.

I will say though, that upon a second review of the video, it didnt appear that he was actually choking either of them. He had the one officer by the back of the neck or the collar. I also think the one officer looked as big or bigger than the dude. I wish the video were more clear. But I agree he wasn't really being that agressive and it didn't look like he intended to hurt them necessarily. I just have serious doubts that the officers would have been able to see that or understand it when they are in the situation. I wouldn't have held it against them if they'd shot him, assuming the stop and arrest were warranted.

 

[Coach]

I understand your point and you're not wrong, but hindsight shows us that this guy didn't need to be shot. I missed what the stop was about, so I need to go back and see that, and maybe I'm just getting softer as I get older, but IMHO shooting that guy would have been tragic. Hopefully they can find the guy (have they already? dunno.) and give him an appropriate punishment for resisting arrest, etc, but personally, I'm glad he didn't get shot. Taser, that's all good, just a little electricity between friends. Justifiable isn't necessarily synonymous with right or necessary.

Tell me the truth, do you think I should look into testosterone supplements? I think I'm getting way too soft lately.

More of a scorched earth policy would score higher points in manliness category without a doubt. But scorched earth policies have their down side as well.

This guy could have done far more damage if he had wanted to do so. So the fact that he got the upper hand is not a good thing or acceptable for police or really civilians either. If the only reason me and my family don't get killed or maimed is because of the good will criminal that is unacceptable. In the situation as it is happening you just don't know. Bad situation.

 

[iChokePeople]

More of a scorched earth policy would score higher points in manliness category without a doubt. But scorched earth policies have their down side as well.

This guy could have done far more damage if he had wanted to do so. So the fact that he got the upper hand is not a good thing or acceptable for police or really civilians either. If the only reason me and my family don't get killed or maimed is because of the good will criminal that is unacceptable. In the situation as it is happening you just don't know. Bad situation.

Absolutely, and the family part is a critical consideration. A guy I might fight with on my own might get shot if someone I cared about would be the next in danger if I lost. I won't intentionally drag anyone else into my wager.

it would have been justified and defensible, and his relatives and friends would have cried on camera and told us all that he would never have hurt them, that he wasn't a violent person... I know, damn, I sound like a bleeding heart liberal. I need beef jerky.

 

[rhino]

I understand your point and you're not wrong, but hindsight shows us that this guy didn't need to be shot. I missed what the stop was about, so I need to go back and see that, and maybe I'm just getting softer as I get older, but IMHO shooting that guy would have been tragic. Hopefully they can find the guy (have they already? dunno.) and give him an appropriate punishment for resisting arrest, etc, but personally, I'm glad he didn't get shot. Taser, that's all good, just a little electricity between friends. Justifiable isn't necessarily synonymous with right or necessary.

Tell me the truth, do you think I should look into testosterone supplements? I think I'm getting way too soft lately.

You're way too girly. Your wrists are downright delicate. Like Coach's.

If you want to really look good in that skirt, you may want to hold off on the T.

And hindsight is great, but not a luxury either of these officers had in the situation. It started out as a friendly resisting arrest situation, but it ended with two officers being controlled and subdued. It would not be a stretch in any sense to articulate that it appeared this guy may cause serious bodily harm or death after he had his hand around the male officer's throat and was totally unconcerned with the female officer's attempts to intervene. If the two officers had pistols he could have had free and relatively unhindered access to it. The officer's couldn't have known his intentions.

I will say though, that upon a second review of the video, it didnt appear that he was actually choking either of them. He had the one officer by the back of the neck or the collar. I also think the one officer looked as big or bigger than the dude. I wish the video were more clear. But I agree he wasn't really being that agressive and it didn't look like he intended to hurt them necessarily. I just have serious doubts that the officers would have been able to see that or understand it when they are in the situation. I wouldn't have held it against them if they'd shot him, assuming the stop and arrest were warranted.

That puzzled me as well. The narration made it seem like the guy was huge compared to the two cops, but the make cop was taller at the very least. I'm also amused my the superhuman strength label on the video. Most people have never felt the kind of force a really, really strong guy can exert. The guy in the video does not fall into that category.

The difference was, the guy in the video was aggressive and the cops were passive. It seemed like they've never encountered someone who resisted them before, or at least they were not expecting that particular guy to resist.

More of a scorched earth policy would score higher points in manliness category without a doubt. But scorched earth policies have their down side as well.

This guy could have done far more damage if he had wanted to do so. So the fact that he got the upper hand is not a good thing or acceptable for police or really civilians either. If the only reason me and my family don't get killed or maimed is because of the good will criminal that is unacceptable. In the situation as it is happening you just don't know. Bad situation.

Yep. Based on the video, the only real difference between the cops and the guy they tried to arrest was that he actually exerted some effort from the outset.

Absolutely, and the family part is a critical consideration. A guy I might fight with on my own might get shot if someone I cared about would be the next in danger if I lost. I won't intentionally drag anyone else into my wager.

it would have been justified and defensible, and his relatives and friends would have cried on camera and told us all that he would never have hurt them, that he wasn't a violent person... I know, damn, I sound like a bleeding heart liberal. I need beef jerky.

You clearly need to expand your knife collection.

 

[Coach]

I heard it like this once by a 125 NCAA wrestling champion. "There are a lot of pussies that can bench 400 pounds."

 

[rhino]

I heard it like this once by a 125 NCAA wrestling champion. "There are a lot of pussies that can bench 400 pounds."

That's actually pretty accurate. There are a few who can do 500 as well. Heavy metal things only harm you when you stupidly try to lift them too much. Determined people have a pesky way of hurting you of their own volition.

 

[iChokePeople]

I can absolutely introduce you to a 160-lb guy who can toy with ANY of us. And he'll smile and play the whole time. Jackson knows him.

 

[SMiller]

I understand your point and you're not wrong, but hindsight shows us that this guy didn't need to be shot. I missed what the stop was about, so I need to go back and see that, and maybe I'm just getting softer as I get older, but IMHO shooting that guy would have been tragic. Hopefully they can find the guy (have they already? dunno.) and give him an appropriate punishment for resisting arrest, etc, but personally, I'm glad he didn't get shot. Taser, that's all good, just a little electricity between friends. Justifiable isn't necessarily synonymous with right or necessary.

Tell me the truth, do you think I should look into testosterone supplements? I think I'm getting way too soft lately.

Place that scene in the US with armed officers and let's say the perp was trying to disarm the officers, at that point one of them is going to unholster and shoot him a few times in the belly/chest. It happens, the force on force training is the same but here (US) you must throw a tazer and a hand gun into the mix.

 

[Jackson]

I can absolutely introduce you to a 160-lb guy who can toy with ANY of us. And he'll smile and play the whole time. Jackson knows him.

It is somewhat off topic here, but I have approached this guy about the possibility of teaching an open-enrollment seminar on contact distance fighting with tools involved. He has not agreed to do it, but he didn't say no either. I may put up a separate feeler thread to gauge interest in something like that.