Sig P320 Police Lawsuits

[Pepi]

I bought a Gen 4 P365 with safety a while back and I've never grown to trust or like this gun? I would never carry it with one in the chamber

 

[Cameramonkey]

My first thought was "does any of her clothing contain bungee cinches?"

I know that typically causes the discharge DURING holstering, but if its loose enough, it could be holstered OK until the cord was pulled tight by upper body movements.

 

[indyblue]

Just another reason I don’t want to own a striker fired pistol. I prefer da/sa’s with external hammers.

 

[BigRed3588]

I don’t buy it. There are hundreds of thousands of P320s in military and civilian hands and nowhere near the number of reported malfunctions we’re seeing from LEOs.

I’ve worked around LEOs for the past decade and they are not the model of firearm safety. My last office was located in a federal LEA field office and I frequently observed unsafe practices. One agent in particular would walk around the building with a G22 hanging out of the front pocket of his jeans.

Edit: This guy gives a pretty good explanation. Basically, two parts of the sear and the striker safety would have to be defective and/or fail simultaneously for the gun to fire without the trigger being pulled. I’m sticking with my original opinion that these are primarily cases of negligence with the potential for a couple to have defective parts.

 

[Lpherr]

I don’t buy it. There are hundreds of thousands of P320s in military and civilian hands and nowhere near the number of reported malfunctions we’re seeing from LEOs.

I’ve worked around LEOs for the past decade and they are not the model of firearm safety. My last office was located in a federal LEA field office and I frequently observed unsafe practices. One agent in particular would walk around the building with a G22 hanging out of the front pocket of his jeans.

Is that a G22 in your pocket, or are you happy to see me?

 

[WebSnyper]

I bought a Gen 4 P365 with safety a while back and I've never grown to trust or like this gun? I would never carry it with one in the chamber

I believe that the 365 is a somewhat different design than the 320. I've heard no such reports with the 365.

 

[shootersix]

Wondering if her name is “Alexis Baldwin?”

 

[ECS686]

Nothing but ambulance chasers. Several cases have been thrown out.

Wrong holster, improper carry method (running a holster equipped for a WML with no WML on the firearms) etc.

Also Funny to me how these lawsuits are always somewhat smaller or medium departments. Several State Police Agencies run 320’s and manage to not have issues TX being one of the largest with almost 3,000 Troooers.

Anyone old enough to remember also back in the late 80’s early 90’s Glock had the same issue to the point it was coined “Glock Leg” and None of the cases I know of were anything but bad reholstering skills or improper holsters
But people like a good story

 

[goob469]

Just expected. Many lawsuits from cops against Glock when they were shooting themselves with Glocks instead of SIGs.

Note how the lawsuits cluster. In the Massachusetts suit she is just the latest in a string of suits among 2 Massachusetts towns.

Not just 2 Massachusetts towns but, towns right next to each other (I googled it - they butt up to each other like a Carmel/Westfield around here).

The statistical probability of 3 guns going off by themselves in 2 different departments within 9 miles of each other (could probably call it one department as they are so close and probably bought the sigs at the same time) is just crazy.

Did sig do a bad batch.... possibility? Is the local PD armor screwing them up... possibility? Are the officers screwing with the internals... possibility? Is it poor weapon handing and someone / thing pulled the trigger by "accident..." I would say is the most probable.

It will be interesting how this plays out.

 

[breakingcontact]

I only buy old Sigs. Modern Sig is not the same company. Facts.

 

[patience0830]

Yes.

There is a version with no manual safety. Not sure about the military part.

 

[Route 45]

I bought a Gen 4 P365 with safety a while back and I've never grown to trust or like this gun? I would never carry it with one in the chamber

Then trade it for something else. I would literally rather be completely unarmed than to have the false confidence of thinking I can draw a dinky pistol like a P365, fumble around with racking a round into the chamber and successfully deploy it in a volatile situation. Good way to get yourself killed. At least if I was completely unarmed, I wouldn't do something so mind-numbingly stupid as try to engage in a gunfight with an empty gun, and might therefore live through the encounter.

Dad Isn't Carrying With a Round Chambered, Gets Self and Son Killed on Video - AllOutdoor.com

Yet another video has surfaced illustrating why it’s critical that you learn to carry with a round chambered. In it, a father and son are being held up by multiple robbers. The father is carrying, and when one of the robbers isn’t looking he draws, points, then yanks the gun off center-line...

www.alloutdoor.com

 

[bwframe]

I wonder if part of the issue with officers and pistols going off in holsters isn't the predominance of light bearing holsters these days? A lot of light bearing holsters have noticeable opening around the trigger guard to accommodate the light.

With all the stuff officers carry and are surrounded with at any given time, any number of things could sneak into the gaps in light bearing holsters. Including and or especially keys. Numerous things could end up in these gaps to lever the trigger and be gone when attempting diagnosis of the AD.

https://www.wthr.com/article/news/l...-gun/531-f4bae0cd-de00-4539-9fbf-1e6a5b8787ff

Man shot at Lt. Allen's funeral

The Woman Deputy That was shot was a friend of mine and was sitting 4 chairs from me. If I had not gotten up to use the restroom then it would have been her husband that was sitting where she was when shot. The only thing I am thankful for in this situation is that my wife or son did not get...

www.indianagunowners.com

.

 

[Pepi]

Then trade it for something else. I would literally rather be completely unarmed than to have the false confidence of thinking I can draw a dinky pistol like a P365, fumble around with racking a round into the chamber and successfully deploy it in a volatile situation. Good way to get yourself killed. At least if I was completely unarmed, I wouldn't do something so mind-numbingly stupid as try to engage in a gunfight with an empty gun, and might therefore live through the encounter.

Dad Isn't Carrying With a Round Chambered, Gets Self and Son Killed on Video - AllOutdoor.com

Yet another video has surfaced illustrating why it’s critical that you learn to carry with a round chambered. In it, a father and son are being held up by multiple robbers. The father is carrying, and when one of the robbers isn’t looking he draws, points, then yanks the gun off center-line...

www.alloutdoor.com

I don't carry it. I carry a S&W airweight

 

[ditcherman]

If I don't see the video of the pistol going off in the holster, I don't believe the cop period. That being said the P320 is the ONLY striker fired gun that does not have any form of "trigger dingus" and I have had a sneaking suspicion for years that would have totally prevented these news stories.

I’m wondering how much the lack of “trigger dingus” plays into training, or retraining.
I have a few, but haven’t rigorously trained with them for a long time, but I’m sure I’m in the minority, especially when it comes to police forces.
Is there some kind of training that should be done, more specific than “hey look no trigger dingus keep you finger off” to transition an officer or anyone from glockish things to p320 things?
So is it the actual lack of trigger safety or is it, as stated up thread concerning thumb safety, if you’re relying on that your doing it wrong?
Are there fingers inside of trigger guards and we just don’t know it because of trigger dingi?

 

[92FSTech]

I’m wondering how much the lack of “trigger dingus” plays into training, or retraining.
I have a few, but haven’t rigorously trained with them for a long time, but I’m sure I’m in the minority, especially when it comes to police forces.
Is there some kind of training that should be done, more specific than “hey look no trigger dingus keep you finger off” to transition an officer or anyone from glockish things to p320 things?
So is it the actual lack of trigger safety or is it, as stated up thread concerning thumb safety, if you’re relying on that your doing it wrong?
Are there fingers inside of trigger guards and we just don’t know it because of trigger dingi?

Training consists of keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire, period. I don't care if it's a Glock or a P320, or even a DA revolver with a 12lb pull. It makes no difference. Plenty of cops have shot themselves with Glocks. Locally, I know of 2 separate NDs by cops using Glocks (and FWIW, neither of those 2 NDs had anything to do with the need to pull the trigger to disassemble, either...it was just plain old poor handling).

Pretty much every local agency has switched to the P320 in the last 5 years, and so far I know of no ND stories with those. Doesn't mean it won't happen...poor handling is poor handling, and a trigger safety won't change that one bit.

The training cops receive in this regard is more than adequate....but like training in any profession, there's always a few that just won't listen.

 

[ditcherman]

Training consists of keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire, period. I don't care if it's a Glock or a P320, or even a DA revolver with a 12lb pull. It makes no difference. Plenty of cops have shot themselves with Glocks. Locally, I know of 2 separate NDs by cops using Glocks (and FWIW, neither of those 2 NDs had anything to do with the need to pull the trigger to disassemble, either...it was just plain old poor handling).

Pretty much every local agency has switched to the P320 in the last 5 years, and so far I know of no ND stories with those. Doesn't mean it won't happen...poor handling is poor handling, and a trigger safety won't change that one bit.

The training cops receive in this regard is more than adequate....but like training in any profession, there's always a few that just won't listen.

If “a trigger safety won’t change that one bit” why are they there? Not trying to be argumentative, but someone must think they change something.
I agree with you actually, in my case, I can not see a trigger safety preventing an nd when reholstering and that’s my biggest concern.
I’ve chosen triggers I like and none of them have trigger safeties so don’t have a lot of experience.
Are they a false sense of security, actually harmful, or do they do some good?

 

[92FSTech]

If “a trigger safety won’t change that one bit” why are they there? Not trying to be argumentative, but someone must think they change something.
I agree with you actually, in my case, I can not see a trigger safety preventing an nd when reholstering and that’s my biggest concern.
I’ve chosen triggers I like and none of them have trigger safeties so don’t have a lot of experience.
Are they a false sense of security, actually harmful, or do they do some good?

The trigger dingus performs 2 functions that I can think of. First, it prevents an inertial actuation of the trigger if the gun is dropped, like was happening with the pre-upgrade P320s. If those 320s had had a dingus, it would have prevented those discharges from happening because the dingus would have had to be depressed for the trigger to move to the rear. Sig found a different solution to that problem (a lower-mass trigger), so even the upgraded guns don't have a dingus.

The second function is dubious at best in my mind (and likely has nothing to do with the actual designed reason for the dingus). It can prevent the trigger from being pulled accidentally by an object that protrudes partially into the trigger guard, but not all the way. Dubious, because you're talking maybe 1/8"-1/4" more protrusion, and the dingus is being depressed anyway. If you get a string or jacket pull-tab or something inside your trigger guard when reholstering, the gun is probably going to go bang anyway, dingus or no dingus. It MIGHT provide some protection for a gun in a soft-sided flexible holster like those cheap uncle mike's IWB sleeves, or some soft pocket holsters, where an object outside the holster exerts pressure through the holster into the trigger guard, but IMO that is a situation better solved by using a proper holster and carry techniques than relying on a mechanical dingus.

 

[ditcherman]

The trigger dingus performs 2 functions that I can think of. First, it prevents an inertial actuation of the trigger if the gun is dropped, like was happening with the pre-upgrade P320s. If those 320s had had a dingus, it would have prevented those discharges from happening because the dingus would have had to be depressed for the trigger to move to the rear. Sig found a different solution to that problem (a lower-mass trigger), so even the upgraded guns don't have a dingus.

The second function is dubious at best in my mind (and likely has nothing to do with the actual designed reason for the dingus). It can prevent the trigger from being pulled accidentally by an object that protrudes partially into the trigger guard, but not all the way. Dubious, because you're talking maybe 1/8"-1/4" more protrusion, and the dingus is being depressed anyway. If you get a string or jacket pull-tab or something inside your trigger guard when reholstering, the gun is probably going to go bang anyway, dingus or no dingus. It MIGHT provide some protection for a gun in a soft-sided flexible holster like those cheap uncle mike's IWB sleeves, or some soft pocket holsters, where an object outside the holster exerts pressure through the holster into the trigger guard, but IMO that is a situation better solved by using a proper holster and carry techniques than relying on a mechanical dingus.

I had forgotten about the inertial aspects, thanks.
Agree with you here.
I carry a p320 x five with Romeo 1 pro appendix, Grayguns duty trigger.

 

[LtScott14]

I have been studying this issue as it evolves. Keeps getting deeper, and the "upgrade of first issue models" still sounds like Sig has found a flaw in design.I traded my 320 off due to the total hype and I didn't trust carrying it with a round in the breech.

Lets also look at carry holsters as it can be considered a tool everyone uses. I'm not convinced that the Blackxxxx design is actually safe for certain weapons carry. Many agencies and ranges do not accept them if from past experience.

The lawsuit filed injuries are always going to occur as the world is a lawsuit world now.
I've carried just about every different firearm out there. Well fitting holster isnt't a bad thing. I own tubs of leather and kydex rigs, and keep going back to a quality formed weapon specific, design holster.

Lastly, mishandling a loaded weapon is going to be a bad thing. Quit treating it like a new toy! You or your loved ones may suffer the discharge, and injuries from that action.
Load and secure your firearm, keep the stupid strings and junk away from your holster. If in a pocket, do not put anything in that pocket! Carry in a pocket holster with that intent. Don't rely on a shoestring to secure your weapon! Good luck. Don't die from protecting yourself.