Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[BigRed]

I must be the warmonger on here, because I fully support the continued and expanded supply of weaponry to Ukraine.

You are always free to donate your own property to the cause.

I'm not in favor of plundering my neighbor to support this nonsensical bull****.

 

[Libertarian01]

As far as I understand it Libertarian's are against our support of the war? At least all the ones I just voted for were. As well as us even being in NATO and US central government involvement in overthrowing other countries costing US citizens trillions with the wars that follow.

Your view is easily explained though.
Double think:
To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself—that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word—doublethink—involved the use of doublethink.
View attachment 236637

I am sure when the time comes you will remember to say the correct things you have been taught to say about the war with eastasia(sorry China or maybe Turkey given our funding and military hardware given to Cyprus and Greece the last year and a half).

Just an example.
We have and need the most powerful military in the world and the 137 foreign bases currently in use,spending more than the next 5 nations combined annually.
A few seconds later.
We need a much smaller central government and less spending.

That pretty much sums up why I say double think on supporting proxy wars(any war we have not been attacked actually).

This Libertarian is certainly NOT against the use of force, or even initiating force if necessary. SHOW ME ON THIS ISSUE WHERE I HAVE ENGAGED IN DOUBLETHINK, otherwise kindly retract this inaccurate ad hominem attack. My support for fiscal responsibility and the reduction of military spending has never meant going to zero (0). If anything, this Russian aggression shows me that perhaps what I was thinking was in error to some extent. It also shows me where we might better spend funds to be more efficient.

If asked, I am for small government (not NO govt) and the individual freedom to experience the just consequences of ones own actions.

I am also looking at the long term costs / consequences of this conflict were it to escalate. What we are spending now would be dwarfed were Russia to succeed and continue on, which has been their intent, into Poland and Romania. This would directly conflict with NATO and our response there could well trigger a nuclear exchange. An exchange that would be significantly more costly to everyone.

By assisting Ukraine with the virtuous defense of its acknowledged sovereign territory we are greatly reducing Russia's ability wage any meaningful war for decades to come. This then reduces the threat to American lives and interests for that time.

You are always free to donate your own property to the cause.

I'm not in favor of plundering my neighbor to support this nonsensical bull****.

I do freely donate my own property. I pay taxes.

But, "Plunder." C'mon...Really...? We live in a nation that has comparatively low taxes, one of the greatest standards of living, low gas prices, great protections of civil rights. Compared to other first world countries we are very well off. We can produce enough food to feed ourselves. If we chose to we could be entirely energy independent. Look at the cost of living overall in other first world countries. Look at their gas prices. Look at their energy prices. Context.

Regards,

Doug

 

[DragonGunner]

This Libertarian is certainly NOT against the use of force, or even initiating force if necessary. SHOW ME ON THIS ISSUE WHERE I HAVE ENGAGED IN DOUBLETHINK, otherwise kindly retract this inaccurate ad hominem attack. My support for fiscal responsibility and the reduction of military spending has never meant going to zero (0). If anything, this Russian aggression shows me that perhaps what I was thinking was in error to some extent. It also shows me where we might better spend funds to be more efficient.

If asked, I am for small government (not NO govt) and the individual freedom to experience the just consequences of ones own actions.

I am also looking at the long term costs / consequences of this conflict were it to escalate. What we are spending now would be dwarfed were Russia to succeed and continue on, which has been their intent, into Poland and Romania. This would directly conflict with NATO and our response there could well trigger a nuclear exchange. An exchange that would be significantly more costly to everyone.

By assisting Ukraine with the virtuous defense of its acknowledged sovereign territory we are greatly reducing Russia's ability wage any meaningful war for decades to come. This then reduces the threat to American lives and interests for that time.


I do freely donate my own property. I pay taxes.

But, "Plunder." C'mon...Really...? We live in a nation that has comparatively low taxes, one of the greatest standards of living, low gas prices, great protections of civil rights. Compared to other first world countries we are very well off. We can produce enough food to feed ourselves. If we chose to we could be entirely energy independent. Look at the cost of living overall in other first world countries. Look at their gas prices. Look at their energy prices. Context.

Regards,

Doug

You lost me at low gas prices...tell that to those struggling week to week....I can see you have some money in your pocket makes the gas prices of no difference to you....sad. And I agree its PLUNDER....we are at $31 Trillion and climbing every second. Last year Government raked in $4 Trillion in taxes....and Spent $7 Trillion so they had to print $3 Trillion which equals more taxes, more debt more inflation, more taxes, more taxes. But hey, Ukraine is needed for Biden and company to launder their dirty $$$$$.

 

[oze]

)

Ukraine: Begs Israel to provide it with advanced offensive weapons

Also Ukraine: Votes in the UN to take Israel to International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity

Zerohedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

The UN resolution was voted on in the General Assembly on Friday, and it urged an international investigation into Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands, as well as "annexation" activities and alleged human rights abuses against Palestinians. Ukraine's representative registered a "yes" vote, and the resolution will now proceed to the next stage (a Generally Assembly plenary, likely next month), given it passed with 98 countries in favor

It's odd that Zelensky is condemning that vote from his own foreign minister. Probably just backpedaling, but still, the vote makes no sense given the circumstances. At the very least, Ukraine could have abstained. Israel would be completely justified to tell Ukraine to go **** itself.

 

[bobzilla]

You lost me at low gas prices...tell that to those struggling week to week....I can see you have some money in your pocket makes the gas prices of no difference to you....sad. And I agree its PLUNDER....we are at $31 Trillion and climbing every second. Last year Government raked in $4 Trillion in taxes....and Spent $7 Trillion so they had to print $3 Trillion which equals more taxes, more debt more inflation, more taxes, more taxes. But hey, Ukraine is needed for Biden and company to launder their dirty $$$$$.

Compared to most of the western world, we do still have "low" gas prices.
England: $7.38 gal
Germany: $7.30/gal
Italy: $6.38/gal
France: $5.54/gal

 

[BigMoose]

I must be the warmonger on here, because I fully support the continued and expanded supply of weaponry to Ukraine.

For the first time since WWII we are causing the total destruction of a hostile nations war machine without spilling a single drop of American blood. We are able to defeat an aggressive nation simply by supplying a motivated defender with superior firepower. To my thinking that is a win far beyond Ukraine.

It is a win to my thinking beyond Ukraine because it sends a message to China and anyone else even thinking of attacking someone America likes. They don't need to have a treaty, or be a member of NATO, or anything else. F*** with someone America likes and who is willing to fight and your losses will be catastrophic, possibly regime changing.

The idea of Ukraine now entering negotiations is laughable. If Biden is ignoring a generals push to negotiate, then he has more chutzpah than that general! The only negotiation Ukraine should even consider is this, "Leave all Ukrainian territory including Donetsk and Crimea, take all of your supporters with you, and we will stop killing you by the tens of thousands. Agreed?"

Collaterally this is a great marketing tool for American industry. A lot of countries are giving Ukraine obsolete equipment, much like what happened to Turkey. Those countries are going to then upgrade. Who's weapons do I think they'll buy? It ain't Russian. Our exports will probably improve.

All that said above I would truly love for this war to end as quickly as possible! I just want it ending with a complete victory for Ukraine and their regaining of all territory including Crimea.

Regards,

Doug

You are of course completely right. But the tin foil hatter crowd on here borders somewhere between isolationist and xenophobic.

Ive been on here preaching that this is a cheap way to deal with Russia. And better for us in the long run.

 

[Libertarian01]

You lost me at low gas prices...tell that to those struggling week to week....I can see you have some money in your pocket makes the gas prices of no difference to you....sad. And I agree its PLUNDER....we are at $31 Trillion and climbing every second. Last year Government raked in $4 Trillion in taxes....and Spent $7 Trillion so they had to print $3 Trillion which equals more taxes, more debt more inflation, more taxes, more taxes. But hey, Ukraine is needed for Biden and company to launder their dirty $$$$$.

Yes, LOW gas prices - compared to the majority of first world countries. We are doing GREAT compared to most other developed countries!

Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Norway = Average $8.00 / gallon.
Great Britain = $7.23 / gal.
France = $6.18 / gal.
China = $4.67
Germany = $7.30

Our neighbors?

Canada = $5.44 / gal.
Mexico = $4.65 / gal.

Gasoline prices around the world, 15-Apr-2024 | GlobalPetrolPrices.com

Gas prices by country using official data sources.

www.globalpetrolprices.com

Look at the countries that are cheaper than us in gasoline and tell me you'd like to live there. For me - !

Americans can be the biggest sissies. We whine, b***h, and complain about how bad WE have it without looking outside America. We don't truly appreciate how easy we have it because, I believe, most Americans do not travel outside of our own country. Maybe because we're so big. I don't know. But we don't appreciate how truly great we have things here until we go somewhere else.

I try to at least look. And I'll take $4.25 / gal over any of these other countries.

Regards,

Doug

 

[KG1]

Joe Biden thanks you for being satisfied with rising gas prices because hey we still have it so much better than other countries so stop bitching about it. Joe agrees with you. Start appreciating how truly great we have things here.

Oh and BTW Joe says stop bitching about inflation here too. Other places are affected by it worse. Be thankful you don't live there. I believe he may have even actually said that at one time.

 

[DragonGunner]

Compared to most of the western world, we do still have "low" gas prices.
England: $7.38 gal
Germany: $7.30/gal
Italy: $6.38/gal
France: $5.54/gal

Not my country’s. My country liberals screwed us. Twice in 2 years. Gas is 3.00 a gallon in Russia. 2.35 in Saudi Arabia. So what’s your point again? Oh ya, be happy with liberals.

 

[DragonGunner]

Yes, LOW gas prices - compared to the majority of first world countries. We are doing GREAT compared to most other developed countries!

Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Norway = Average $8.00 / gallon.
Great Britain = $7.23 / gal.
France = $6.18 / gal.
China = $4.67
Germany = $7.30

Our neighbors?

Canada = $5.44 / gal.
Mexico = $4.65 / gal.

Gasoline prices around the world, 15-Apr-2024 | GlobalPetrolPrices.com

Gas prices by country using official data sources.

www.globalpetrolprices.com

Look at the countries that are cheaper than us in gasoline and tell me you'd like to live there. For me - !

Americans can be the biggest sissies. We whine, b***h, and complain about how bad WE have it without looking outside America. We don't truly appreciate how easy we have it because, I believe, most Americans do not travel outside of our own country. Maybe because we're so big. I don't know. But we don't appreciate how truly great we have things here until we go somewhere else.

I try to at least look. And I'll take $4.25 / gal over any of these other countries.

Regards,

Doug

What a bunch of BS.

 

[buckwacker]

Yes, LOW gas prices - compared to the majority of first world countries. We are doing GREAT compared to most other developed countries!

Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Norway = Average $8.00 / gallon.
Great Britain = $7.23 / gal.
France = $6.18 / gal.
China = $4.67
Germany = $7.30

Our neighbors?

Canada = $5.44 / gal.
Mexico = $4.65 / gal.

Gasoline prices around the world, 15-Apr-2024 | GlobalPetrolPrices.com

Gas prices by country using official data sources.

www.globalpetrolprices.com

Look at the countries that are cheaper than us in gasoline and tell me you'd like to live there. For me - !

Americans can be the biggest sissies. We whine, b***h, and complain about how bad WE have it without looking outside America. We don't truly appreciate how easy we have it because, I believe, most Americans do not travel outside of our own country. Maybe because we're so big. I don't know. But we don't appreciate how truly great we have things here until we go somewhere else.

I try to at least look. And I'll take $4.25 / gal over any of these other countries.

Regards,

Doug

A word of warning here. Things are much worse than they were just a few years ago, and labelling everyone pointing this out as whiners smacks of whitewashing the sins of our current political leadership.

 

[DadSmith]

Russia starting up a new wave of attacks as the election went their way as well. More democrats in power it's better for them.

 

[smokingman]

This Libertarian is certainly NOT against the use of force, or even initiating force if necessary. SHOW ME ON THIS ISSUE WHERE I HAVE ENGAGED IN DOUBLETHINK, otherwise kindly retract this inaccurate ad hominem attack. My support for fiscal responsibility and the reduction of military spending has never meant going to zero (0). If anything, this Russian aggression shows me that perhaps what I was thinking was in error to some extent. It also shows me where we might better spend funds to be more efficient.

If asked, I am for small government (not NO govt) and the individual freedom to experience the just consequences of ones own actions.

I am also looking at the long term costs / consequences of this conflict were it to escalate. What we are spending now would be dwarfed were Russia to succeed and continue on, which has been their intent, into Poland and Romania. This would directly conflict with NATO and our response there could well trigger a nuclear exchange. An exchange that would be significantly more costly to everyone.

By assisting Ukraine with the virtuous defense of its acknowledged sovereign territory we are greatly reducing Russia's ability wage any meaningful war for decades to come. This then reduces the threat to American lives and interests for that time.


I do freely donate my own property. I pay taxes.

But, "Plunder." C'mon...Really...? We live in a nation that has comparatively low taxes, one of the greatest standards of living, low gas prices, great protections of civil rights. Compared to other first world countries we are very well off. We can produce enough food to feed ourselves. If we chose to we could be entirely energy independent. Look at the cost of living overall in other first world countries. Look at their gas prices. Look at their energy prices. Context.

Regards,

Doug

You see this conflict as about Russia.
I see this conflict to be about the USA wanting control of the world.

You point out the "virtuous defense of its acknowledged sovereign territory" as if we did not overthrow an elected government in Ukraine because it had Russian support to create in your mind(and many others) this democratic sovereign territory with just one political party(founded just to get Zelenski into the presidents office) .

You also fail to recognize things like Zelenski cancelling the lease of Crimea to Russia(that was already paid for). Ignore the UN treaties which made the separatist areas self governing(as they had been since before the fall of the soviet union,and stayed that way after the fall) that Ukraine ignored and instead shelled and bombed the cities for 8+ years.

The US has supported separatist regions before,when it was seen as a benefit to us(Yugoslav wars from 1993-2017 ). No mention of "virtuous defense of acknowledged sovereign territory" during that,as we were able to pick who retained power.

Am I an isolationist. No. I believe much as our founders did.

"Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. ... In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur."
George Washington

I do not see how crippling most of Europe,destroying our own currency(the moment we restricted the use to preferred counties), and spending vast sums of capitol and resources on a conflict that has raged in some ways for more than 900 years is in the interest of the USA.

 

[KG1]

Joe Biden thanks you for being satisfied with rising gas prices because hey we still have it so much better than other countries so stop bitching about it. Joe agrees with you. Start appreciating how truly great we have things here.

Oh and BTW Joe says stop bitching about inflation here too. Other places are affected by it worse. Be thankful you don't live there.

Another thing I would like to add is I believe Obama tried to get us to accept the "new norm" of higher prices, lower GDP and stock market expectations and forget about even hoping for the return of manufacturing. Is Biden along with others (some here even) also trying to get us to give him a pass and accept the "new norm" because it's still better than a lot of places?

Trump responded with a resounding eff that! As POTUS he would absolutely not settle for the Obama "new norm" lower standard expectation bull**** doctrine and Americans should not settle for it either. He then campaigned to change that way of thinking and subsequently set forth enacting a policy initiative to back it up and THAT is what sparked the MAGA movement. Make America Great Again means Do Not just roll over and accept the decline in this country. That should still ring true especially today, but some are still apparently willing to accept the decline and continue to vote for it.

 

[bobzilla]

So what’s your point again? Oh ya, be happy with liberals.

Please show your work. Direct me to any post not in purple where I have EVER said that. I was reinforcing the FACT that compared to most of the WESTERN world (I.E., not Russia or some third world country) our gas is "cheap". Jumping to your conclusion is idiotic.

 

[bobzilla]

Russia starting up a new wave of attacks as the election went their way as well. More democrats in power it's better for them.

I find this funny because the liberals view it as the russians not winning because they are the republicans.

 

[DadSmith]

I find this funny because the liberals view it as the russians not winning because they are the republicans.

They are brainwashed and brain dead. They voted for Biden, AOC, and Fetterman enough said.

 

[bobzilla]

They are brainwashed and brain dead. They voted for Biden, AOC, and Fetterman enough said.

Again, not arguing that fact.

 

[BigMoose]

Ukraine really should not be a political thing. Its about the Russians trying to land grab, to regain the former influence sphere the Soviet Union had. Okay for example so we give them Ukraine.. they will want more. Appeasement doesn't work. Next time it will be the Baltics or Poland. Its nothing to do about the Russians feeling threatened, it is everything to do with Putins desire to restore the Russian legacy.

The Republican party once really opposed the Russians, I really don't know why Trump coddled to them.. Reagan or both Bushes surely didn't.

I have no doubt that if Reagan or ether Bush saw the Russians invade Ukraine, the response would be pretty much the same, probably even be stronger. With Reagan? MUCH stronger..

 

[SEIndSAM]