Rise of the optics.

[NHT3]

It's all about training or lack of. For me personally target focus combined with being more confident in my sight picture results in faster and more accurate shots with a dot

 

[Trapper Jim]

I disagree, the optics makes a difference with speed.

Moot point but again on the street there may be no time for ANY kind of sight pic. Spending time to get a sight pic at 3 ft will get you kilt. Each of us are dealt with a unique hand/eye coordination, brain and neurological system and lots of practice helps to a point. In other words, developed skills are obtainable and very useful in the games but on the street the sum of what you do with what you got, when you need it, makes the difference in wether you come home or not.

 

[Goodcat]

I’ve been shooting about 12 years. I’ve never had a RDS fail. I’ve had irons walk off or fail twice. Technology has changed. Good thing everyone was scared of this plastic Glocks falling apart.

 

[longbeard]

You can acquire a sight picture more quickly, particularly at a distance, but a red dot doesn't make up for poor trigger control or any other fundamentals.

Anyone non-hobbyist person who solicits advice from me (which is a poor decision) gets told "don't buy a red dot unless it's a range toy". I think it's better for non-practiced folks to be able to see the end of their muzzle to correct a poor index. Otherwise they risk spend a lot of time and attention hunting in a window.

Also the fact... If you don't shoot well enough to zero a red dot. You don't need a red dot IMO. This is overlooked a lot. A lot of casual gun owners can't hold a decent group.

 

[Bosshoss]

You can acquire a sight picture more quickly, particularly at a distance, but a red dot doesn't make up for poor trigger control or any other fundamentals.

This x 1000%
If you can't break the shot without disturbing the sights minimally then it doesn't matter if irons or optics.

 

[Jaybird1980]

I've used (quality) red dots in a professional capacity for 20 years. 0 failures.

I have had backup irons fail twice. The rear sight knob on a rear AR fell off, and the front sight on a Glock 19 sheared off.

Are you talking on rifles or handguns? 20 years ago I was using red dots also, but they were definitely not slide mounted. My handgun was mounted on a mount. Probably shouldn't really compare either of those to a slide mounted optic on though.

 

[Bosshoss]

Moot point but again on the street there may be no time for ANY kind of sight pic. Spending time to get a sight pic at 3 ft will get you kilt.

Then it doesn't matter if optic or iron sight is on the gun.

Not sure how we got from the range to the streets but most the rules still apply.
Yes 3 feet is a point shoot to keep the gun safe from being grabbed. For me at least anything farther 10ft+ I do/will acquire a sight picture in my testing it isn't any slower to acquire a flash sight picture before breaking the shot. This is where the practice thing comes in.
When I shoot irons I switch between target focus and sight focus depending on the shot. Hardcover or no shoot or 15yard+ I sight focus and wide open targets up close I target focus.
Hard to describe but even with target focus I subconsciously still see the sights to make sure they are lined up (but not in sharp focus) but focus is on the target.

With many of the police departments going to optics and much of the armed force's going to optics there must be something good about them for the ones who put their lives on the line to use them.

 

[ECS686]

Moot point but again on the street there may be no time for ANY kind of sight pic. Spending time to get a sight pic at 3 ft will get you kilt. Each of us are dealt with a unique hand/eye coordination, brain and neurological system and lots of practice helps to a point. In other words, developed skills are obtainable and very useful in the games but on the street the sum of what you do with what you got, when you need it, makes the difference in wether you come home or not.

I have seen some phenomenal RD shooters. Specifically at a Range Master IDC course I mentioned earlier here. Some where getting rounds off at the 25 yard line with a sight picture right at a second mark. Same with up close. Same with us 3 using irons with maybe a slightly slower time on the 25

However the type of folks that attend a Range Master IDC or Any Range Master class or any other are in the 20,000 ish what Tom Givens calls Professional Students.

And by students those that continue to do classes every year not just a range rat that did an NRA class 35 years ago and go to the range or reads an article. Those types will probably not benefit from a RDS and that’s ok too!

 

[cedartop]

Just a observation so far this year. I know Carry Optics is the biggest division in USPSA but I still thought this was interesting. Optics include PCC, Open, Carry optics, and in a month or so Limited Optics.
So far I have shot SCGC and out of 39 shooters 25 were shooting Optics vs 14 shooting Iron sights(2 days). 2 iron sight shooters in the top 20. Also lots of new shooters at this match both days.
Owensboro had 34 shooting Optics and 10 shooting Irons(2 days).
Atlanta shot this weekend and while I didn't shoot this match the results showed 30 shooting optics and 12 shooting Iron sights.
A match this last weekend in Ohio showed 47 shooting optics and 20 shooting Iron sights with 1 Iron sight gun in the top 20.

Looks like optics is outnumbering Iron sights almost 3 to 1.
I know optics are way more popular than Iron sights in Steel Challenge and IDPA has a lot of optic shooters also.

Not complaining just making a observation for discussion purposes.

In the next 2 IDPA matches I am signed up for, CO makes up 65% and 75% of the field. And remember in IDPA there is only one optics division versus about 7 irons divisions. That is pretty dominating and it is only increasing.

 

[shootersix]

I shoot carry optics in idpa, and I’ve shot idpa esp and ssp, the funny part is I usually finish with faster times with irons, but a lot more accurate with my dot, so I actually finish higher due to not dropping points

 

[Trapper Jim]

Yeah

In the next 2 IDPA matches I am signed up for, CO makes up 65% and 75% of the field. And remember in IDPA there is only one optics division versus about 7 irons divisions. That is pretty dominating and it is only

I shoot carry optics in idpa, and I’ve shot idpa esp and ssp, the funny part is I usually finish with faster times with irons, but a lot more accurate with my dot, so I actually finish higher due to not dropping points

Stage design has a lot to do with it. With the craze of max round count (18 and 32) longer targets and tighter shots (neither one practical or defensive) I find my dot guns very helpful. Down and dirty speed targets the dot only helps me rack the slide.

 

[Tanfodude]

Moot point but again on the street there may be no time for ANY kind of sight pic. Spending time to get a sight pic at 3 ft will get you kilt. Each of us are dealt with a unique hand/eye coordination, brain and neurological system and lots of practice helps to a point. In other words, developed skills are obtainable and very useful in the games but on the street the sum of what you do with what you got, when you need it, makes the difference in wether you come home or not.

Still disagree.

 

[Tanfodude]

Maybe! However I have seen some pretty fast iron shooters and Some places have went to target focused shooting with irons at closer ranges.

Simply place or overlay the front sight like a RD.

Have the same fast iron shooter shoot optics.

 

[Tanfodude]

Then it doesn't matter if optic or iron sight is on the gun.

Not sure how we got from the range to the streets but most the rules still apply.
Yes 3 feet is a point shoot to keep the gun safe from being grabbed. For me at least anything farther 10ft+ I do/will acquire a sight picture in my testing it isn't any slower to acquire a flash sight picture before breaking the shot. This is where the practice thing comes in.
When I shoot irons I switch between target focus and sight focus depending on the shot. Hardcover or no shoot or 15yard+ I sight focus and wide open targets up close I target focus.
Hard to describe but even with target focus I subconsciously still see the sights to make sure they are lined up (but not in sharp focus) but focus is on the target.

With many of the police departments going to optics and much of the armed force's going to optics there must be something good about them for the ones who put their lives on the line to use them.

If you look at his post here in shooting sports section, it's always about the streets. We should move to Self defense thread.

 

[Trapper Jim]

If you look at his post here in shooting sports section, it's always about the streets. We should move to Self defense thread.

Not really..

Just because the shooting sports cater to Optics short close defensive/practical style stages are still legal….just rare. When we prefer to place higher in the standings we like our dots. Don’t know how long they will last but for now one can still have fun with a division rank.

Good for all.

 

[ECS686]

Have the same fast iron shooter shoot optics.

Believe it or not I am not anti RDS I just have seen they are not for everyone and they do have limits.

With RDS while they might help some shoot faster there is a large learning curve. And those that say they didn’t need to change anything I am suspect on. When I went through Dave Spaulding’s RDS class he had the educated opinion it took a minimum of 2.000 rounds to get even to what one was with iron sights. I’d say that is a fair accessment.

My observation is most folks selling points on RDS is speed and speed alone (some cite 25 yard zero but then come back to speed) and I believe that opinion is misguided. I say that as someone with over three decades as a trainer and LE. In a training class or pistol match where you know each target gets X number of rounds with no penalty misses or make up shots they work great there and split times at .18 are all awesome.

However, Real world anything under .50 splits you can not accurately access if that 2nd 3rd or 6th is legal.

If one likes RDS and are proficient than do it but irons aren’t quite obsolete and most that wouldn’t live through the night with an iron sighted gun wouldn’t make it with a RDS gun either in the world of probabilities

 

[jakemartens]

This is the same type of discussion that took place in the 80's with optics on carbines vs iron sights..
It took about 10-15 years for the market to move to optics.
Handguns it has been somewhat slower for the technology to catch up on the optics side to push the firearms manufacturers to start making optics ready handguns (slide mounted). Just like dots on carbines are easy to train to use, that is what is being experience in handguns. Now that they RDS are somewhat more reliable and the firearms are coming optics ready along with the new gun owner grew up playing video games seeing this, it is only understandable why it is growing.

While I do shoot Carry Optics mostly, I still only have irons on my carry gun/home defense guns. If I were to add an optic to any of those it would be with co-witnessed irons. On a hard use handgun, 10-15k rounds a year, optics are annual replacement items.

 

[cedartop]

This is the same type of discussion that took place in the 80's with optics on carbines vs iron sights..
It took about 10-15 years for the market to move to optics.
Handguns it has been somewhat slower for the technology to catch up on the optics side to push the firearms manufacturers to start making optics ready handguns (slide mounted). Just like dots on carbines are easy to train to use, that is what is being experience in handguns. Now that they RDS are somewhat more reliable and the firearms are coming optics ready along with the new gun owner grew up playing video games seeing this, it is only understandable why it is growing.

While I do shoot Carry Optics mostly, I still only have irons on my carry gun/home defense guns. If I were to add an optic to any of those it would be with co-witnessed irons. On a hard use handgun, 10-15k rounds a year, optics are annual replacement items.

They may be a bit of an exaggeration. I have a G19 from 2010 with an RMR and 80,000 rounds on it. Still working.

 

[jakemartens]

They may be a bit of an exaggeration. I have a G19 from 2010 with an RMR and 80,000 rounds on it. Still working.

I have a C-More RTS2 on a Carry Optics gun pushing 50k rounds no issue, and a SRO die in less than 500 rounds. I can give 1k examples of "mine has xxx no issues" and "this pos died within xxx rounds"
I wouldn't carry an RMR with 80k rounds on as my EDC, or spend match fees, travel fees, ammo etc to go to a match with that. To each their own.
I do know that just like most things, they break when they are being used, not when they are in the safe, in the holster on stuck in your underwear drawer.

 

[ECS686]

I have a C-More RTS2 on a Carry Optics gun pushing 50k rounds no issue, and a SRO die in less than 500 rounds. I can give 1k examples of "mine has xxx no issues" and "this pos died within xxx rounds"
I wouldn't carry an RMR with 80k rounds on as my EDC, or spend match fees, travel fees, ammo etc to go to a match with that. To each their own.
I do know that just like most things, they break when they are being used, not when they are in the safe, in the holster on stuck in your underwear drawer.

This brings up a great point. Many are not prepared for the attention one has to pay with a RDS on routine maintenance/upkeep or care. (Which why many that preach RDS but blast someone that wants to run a 1911 sort of the same in a way and we’ve seen some folks (or brand they choice) up to the task and some that are not.)

Jake is right. My words there can be a lot of gremlins can come out in a match or hard use class where you run100-1,200 rounds in a 2 day class.