Reset only, or full release? How do you train?

[cedartop]

Of course a few years later he modifies that opinion a bit.

 

[BiscuitsandGravy]

Reset. DA/SA.

 

[G582]

Train how you want but in high stress scenarios fine motor skills often go out the window. I think it was an IMPD officer a few years ago involved in a shooting kept having to rack the slide because his Berretta wouldn't chamber the next round. When the security footage from the convenience store, or wherever it was, was reviewed it showed he was short stroking the trigger.

 

[Mgderf]

Find out what suits you best.

^End discussion

 

[Trapper Jim]

Let the end justify the means. By keeping track of your hit factor (score on a baseline drill) and mastering it to your personal best, you can add or subtract ability driven tweaks to your skill set.

 

[ditcherman]

In reply to CedarTop. I do shoot a few different handguns: P365, P320, Glock 21, and Browing BuckMark. On all of these, I practice to release only to reset during each string of fire. If/when I return to ready position, I remove my finger from the trigger and put is straight along the frame. This requires another 'first-pull' if I have to get back on the trigger; and any subsequent shots in that string will be from reset. That is how I've always done, mostly. The other part of mostly is DA/DAO revolvers and pistols. I grew up with revolvers; been shooting them for about 50 years. My DAO/Revolver stroke is complete trigger release, specifically to avoid short-stroking. I do not 'stage' these triggers. On the decision to fire, I make one straight, continuous, even pull to point of discharge. I feel that staging is a recipe for a negligent discharge. If I am going to shoot, I shoot. If I am not ready to shoot, the trigger is at full release.
I tried a DA/SA Sig P220 years ago. Nice gun. The DA/SA system seems like an accident waiting to happen to me. A cocked and locked 1911 is way safer than a DA/SA where I have to use a decocker. That, in a nutshell (ok, big nutshell) is how I shoot. It is how I train. It seems to work OK for me. But, like I said, I've never been in a 'high-stress-gotta-shoot-or-be-shot' situation. I guess what I am asking is, "Where is this going to fail me if/when the SHTF?" With the way things are going lately, I think SHTF is more and more likely every day.

Interesting question and conversation, I agree with your opening post, but at the same time can’t say with absolute certainty what exactly I do. I’m pretty sure that if I am managing to get .17-.2 split times I’m going to reset. I also think that a gun cycles so quickly that many of these thought experiments aren’t too relevant; as skill progresses time decreases for a given accuracy. I can’t imagine that I’m letting off the trigger all the way.
Why do so many spend time and effort seeking out good reset, if we’re not going to shoot to it?

I think I will end up doing how I train, in a high pressure situation. But I guess if I short stroke it, it’s been nice knowing you guys.

I’d also be interested in why you think the DA/SA is an accident waiting to happen, and why you think cocked and locked is way safer?

 

[ECS686]

Of course a few years later he modifies that opinion a bit.

Having been to a couple Dave Spaulding and Lee Weems classes as well as the Rangemaster Instructor Development Course I have learned to embrace the whole “Reset in recovery” it works and works well.

 

[Twangbanger]

...I also think that a gun cycles so quickly that many of these thought experiments aren’t too relevant...

How fast the gun cycles isn't the relevant issue. It's how fast you can cycle. If the gun is sitting there in battery, waiting for you to fire the shot, your technique is the speed-limiting factor.

As long as you're getting the hits you want, in fast enough time, none of this matters.

But if you're challenging yourself to get the hits as fast as possible, for example in a scored competition where shorter time results in a better score...you will eventually find out the people who let go of the trigger all the way are simply faster than those who don't. For torso-type targets 15 yards or closer, you'll either learn to shoot that way, or lose to those who do. Of course, there's a lot more to overall speed than shot-splits. It's actually one of the smaller contributors. However, if you're the type of person who's slowing down your reset to feel the click and go no farther, you're probably doing a lot of other things slow, also.

If you never go to a USPSA match, and don't measure your performance with a timer against others, you can go a lifetime without ever finding out your speed limits, and it will probably never matter. We're splitting hairs here. But, there's no doubt which way is faster. It's been proven over and over. The Jerry Miculeks and Taran Butlers of the world are letting go of the trigger all the way, when they're burning down targets within 30 feet (perhaps farther). Reasonable accuracy can be achieved various ways. Camp Perry Bullseye accuracy has to be done a certain way (releasing to reset). The _ultimate_ in speed for targets that are _not_ as fine as that, also has to be achieved a certain way (letting go all the way). The people who have put in the rounds have figured this out.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

This is how John Lovell teaches it. But I could definitely see it leading to an unintended double tap under stress. All the way off then back on to prep/stage.

 

[bwframe]

The question is:

If God forbid, you are in a self defense shooting situation, will you mess up and trigger freeze while trying to go as fast as possible and at the same time find the trigger reset? If so, will you realize it's trigger freeze or under pressure think your gun malfunctioned?


.

 

[Bassat]

This is how John Lovell teaches it. But I could definitely see it leading to an unintended double tap under stress. All the way off then back on to prep/stage.

I've watched this video several times. I agree with you. Getting all the way off the trigger during recoil, then looking for the wall again (repeatedly), AND HOPING YOU HAVE FOUND IT, instead of ONLY TO RESET DURING RECOIL, sounds like the Easy-Bake-Oven recipe for a ND.

This guy preaches like the shooters are:
1.) pulling trigger to discharge and HOLDING IT ALL THE WAY BACK.
2.) re-acquiring a sight picture
3.) THEN releasing to reset
I agree with him on one point. Shooting like that is slow.

My process:
1.) Pull trigger to discharge
2.) During recoil, release to reset
3.) re-acquire sight picture
My finger and the trigger are ready to go BEFORE I have a sight picture. To my mind, fully releasing the trigger requires me to move my finger more. It also requires me to find the break-point EVERY TIME, with out benefit of feeling the reset. My method works well for me, on all 4 of the handguns I own. Ok, now 5; I just picked up a 365XL yesterday. Using his recipe on 5 different guns requires me to have muscle memory for 5 different triggers. Mine does not.

I am not convinced full release even makes sense, though it will prevent short-stroking. I am willing to try it, but I don't see how MORE finger movement is going to make me faster.

 

[Bassat]

The question is:

If God forbid, you are in a self defense shooting situation, will you mess up and trigger freeze while trying to go as fast as possible and at the same time find the trigger reset? If so, will you realize it's trigger freeze or under pressure think your gun malfunctioned?


.

I have never in my life tried to shoot 'as fast as possible'. My goal is to be as 'accurate as possible'... quickly. In any endeavor, acquire the skill first, then work on speed. The world's fastest runner learned to walk well before he broke any running records. If my skill at putting rounds where I want them fails me under duress, how quickly I unload the magazine is, for the most part, irrelevant. Well, unless you happen to be an innocent bystander.

 

[Bassat]

Interesting question and conversation, I agree with your opening post, but at the same time can’t say with absolute certainty what exactly I do. I’m pretty sure that if I am managing to get .17-.2 split times I’m going to reset. I also think that a gun cycles so quickly that many of these thought experiments aren’t too relevant; as skill progresses time decreases for a given accuracy. I can’t imagine that I’m letting off the trigger all the way.
Why do so many spend time and effort seeking out good reset, if we’re not going to shoot to it?

I think I will end up doing how I train, in a high pressure situation. But I guess if I short stroke it, it’s been nice knowing you guys.

I’d also be interested in why you think the DA/SA is an accident waiting to happen, and why you think cocked and locked is way safer?

I learn to shoot to reset because it works on any gun I pick up. Keep in mind, I've never shot a 2# finely tuned 1911 trigger. Just factory stuff. Full release, the looking for the wall again seems like a good technique, IF YOU ONLY SHOOT ONE GUN. To me anyway.

On your short-stroke comment: That is something seldom mentioned here, or in any shooting circles. It is quite possible to be well equipped, well trained, and mentally prepared for a fight, and still lose. The best gunfight is one not engaged in.

DA/SA. You have two completely different trigger pulls on one gun. With my striker fired pistols, and my hammer fired pistols, the go-stroke is the same every time. Scenario: you have engaged a threat, fired 3 shots, the threat is down. You are back to high ready with finger along the frame. If another threat appears, and you have de-cocked, you have a completely different trigger pull than if you have not de-cocked. If you train to de-cock, and forget to de-cock under stress, you now have a really light trigger pull to discharge WHEN YOU ARE NOT EXPECTING IT. If you train NOT to de-cock, and you actually do de-cock under stress, you now have an unexpectedly long, heavy DA trigger pull when you are expecting SA.

That is way too complicated for me. I don't want to think about the state of my trigger. Under stress, I am sure I won't think about the state of my trigger. With SAO and striker pistols, there is only one trigger state: ready to go. At one time, I owned a Sig P220. I hated it, mostly because of the DA/SA trigger. That is me. I know DA/SA guns work for a lot of people. I choose to not use them.

 

[bwframe]

I have never in my life tried to shoot 'as fast as possible'. My goal is to be as 'accurate as possible'... quickly. In any endeavor, acquire the skill first, then work on speed. The world's fastest runner learned to walk well before he broke any running records. If my skill at putting rounds where I want them fails me under duress, how quickly I unload the magazine is, for the most part, irrelevant. Well, unless you happen to be an innocent bystander.

Accuracy is a given. It's not only necessary, it's your responcibility.

Accuracy doesn't matter, if you are already dead though. You must be fast enough to apply that accuracy, in multiples, if required.

Why do you think they put a timer on most pistol shooting competitions?

DVC...

 

[Dean C.]

Shoot to reset , my 1911/2011's it's basically irrelevant but my Walther Q4 definitely runs faster when you ride the reset

 

[ditcherman]

I learn to shoot to reset because it works on any gun I pick up. Keep in mind, I've never shot a 2# finely tuned 1911 trigger. Just factory stuff. Full release, the looking for the wall again seems like a good technique, IF YOU ONLY SHOOT ONE GUN. To me anyway.

On your short-stroke comment: That is something seldom mentioned here, or in any shooting circles. It is quite possible to be well equipped, well trained, and mentally prepared for a fight, and still lose. The best gunfight is one not engaged in.

DA/SA. You have two completely different trigger pulls on one gun. With my striker fired pistols, and my hammer fired pistols, the go-stroke is the same every time. Scenario: you have engaged a threat, fired 3 shots, the threat is down. You are back to high ready with finger along the frame. If another threat appears, and you have de-cocked, you have a completely different trigger pull than if you have not de-cocked. If you train to de-cock, and forget to de-cock under stress, you now have a really light trigger pull to discharge WHEN YOU ARE NOT EXPECTING IT. If you train NOT to de-cock, and you actually do de-cock under stress, you now have an unexpectedly long, heavy DA trigger pull when you are expecting SA.

That is way too complicated for me. I don't want to think about the state of my trigger. Under stress, I am sure I won't think about the state of my trigger. With SAO and striker pistols, there is only one trigger state: ready to go. At one time, I owned a Sig P220. I hated it, mostly because of the DA/SA trigger. That is me. I know DA/SA guns work for a lot of people. I choose to not use them.

I agree with a lot of what you say here. I shoot a wide variety, p320 (no external safety), p226 SAO, regular p226, and CZ da/sa, and other da/sa.
I definitely do not train to decock, until it’s going in the holster.
The da/sa trigger is something to get used to, to train with long term, but once you do it can be good, imo. Like anything it just takes time.
And da/sa IMO may be where the shooting to reset is more relevant than a simpler trigger.

 

[Bassat]

Accuracy is a given. It's not only necessary, it's your responcibility.

Accuracy doesn't matter, if you are already dead though. You must be fast enough to apply that accuracy, in multiples, if required.

Why do you think they put a timer on most pistol shooting competitions?

DVC...

Granted. True, every word you say. But you can't train speed before accuracy. Once you can be accurate, you can work on speed. The reverse is not true.

 

[Bassat]

I agree with a lot of what you say here. I shoot a wide variety, p320 (no external safety), p226 SAO, regular p226, and CZ da/sa, and other da/sa.
I definitely do not train to decock, until it’s going in the holster.
The da/sa trigger is something to get used to, to train with long term, but once you do it can be good, imo. Like anything it just takes time.
And da/sa IMO may be where the shooting to reset is more relevant than a simpler trigger.

Oh, I certainly agree with you. The DA/SA trigger can be mastered, and has been mastered by many. Alas, I've been living with my brain for more than 65 years. I know how it works. Given the opportunity to mess up while shooting DA/SA, my brain would somehow, somewhere, sometime make a mistake. It does work well enough to avoid such situations, though. Which is why I do not own a DA/SA pistol, while being right at home with a 1911-style handgun. Hot/Safe is about as complicated as my brain cares to get.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I've watched this video several times. I agree with you. Getting all the way off the trigger during recoil, then looking for the wall again (repeatedly), AND HOPING YOU HAVE FOUND IT, instead of ONLY TO RESET DURING RECOIL, sounds like the Easy-Bake-Oven recipe for a ND.

This guy preaches like the shooters are:
1.) pulling trigger to discharge and HOLDING IT ALL THE WAY BACK.
2.) re-acquiring a sight picture
3.) THEN releasing to reset
I agree with him on one point. Shooting like that is slow.

From the videos posted in this thread it sounds like that is how some(most?) trainers are training people. Pin the trigger, wait until sight picture, then release to reset. And thinking about it, unless you have a light SA trigger, just taking up the slack isn't likely to cause a ND.

My process:
1.) Pull trigger to discharge
2.) During recoil, release to reset
3.) re-acquire sight picture
My finger and the trigger are ready to go BEFORE I have a sight picture. To my mind, fully releasing the trigger requires me to move my finger more. It also requires me to find the break-point EVERY TIME, with out benefit of feeling the reset. My method works well for me, on all 4 of the handguns I own. Ok, now 5; I just picked up a 365XL yesterday. Using his recipe on 5 different guns requires me to have muscle memory for 5 different triggers. Mine does not.

Not quite sure how your method doesn't require 5 different muscle memory for the five different triggers. Unless all of them have the same reset point. Unless you mean that the muscle memory is to feel the reset, in which case it would be no different than training to feel the wall. And by wall I mean taking up the slack, not finding the breaking point.

I am not convinced full release even makes sense, though it will prevent short-stroking. I am willing to try it, but I don't see how MORE finger movement is going to make me faster.

I'm not sure just how more finger movement makes it faster either. But since competitive shooters do it I'm sure it does for most. I can definitely see finding the reset in long range shooting, but not necessarily in close shooting. But you do what works best for you, no snark intended.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

With the understanding it depends on what you're going for and what context you are shooting in, the top level competitive shooters universally trigger slap. It's simply biomechanics that trying to slow and stop your finger at a certain point every time vs just "waggling" it is slower. However very few people have the grip strength and technique to make use of this as they are still in recoil and/or finding the sights again. So, in short, it probably doesn't matter to the vast majority of shooters.