Rationalizing extreme liberty to Christianity

[indiucky]

I just substitute created with born. Works fine.

Endowed by my "Borner"???? Okay....

So I guess one would say "My Freedom is a Borner-Given Right?" Cool...Whatever gets you through the day...

Any other parts of that document you can fix for that hack founder Jefferson...Your quite the wordsmith....

If you believe there is a "grey area" between life and death I don't know what to tell you.....Barring acceptance of a spiritual world (which you said you don't believe in) you have to go with life or death...Not much grey I am afraid....

 

[steveh_131]

I don't think it is unreasonable for an atheist to support individual liberty any more than it is unreasonable for a Christian to support it. The evils of big government are a universal truth.

One could accept Jefferson's understanding of those evils while rejecting his belief in a creator without being inconsistent or illogical.

 

[deal me in]

I don't think it is unreasonable for an atheist to support individual liberty any more than it is unreasonable for a Christian to support it. The evils of big government are a universal truth.

One could accept Jefferson's understanding of those evils while rejecting his belief in a creator without being inconsistent or illogical.

Thanks, easier than me trying to explain.

 

[deal me in]

Endowed by my "Borner"???? Okay....

So I guess one would say "My Freedom is a Borner-Given Right?" Cool...Whatever gets you through the day...

Any other parts of that document you can fix for that hack founder Jefferson...Your quite the wordsmith....



If you believe there is a "grey area" between life and death I don't know what to tell you.....Barring acceptance of a spiritual world (which you said you don't believe in) you have to go with life or death...Not much grey I am afraid....

I believe there are grey areas on when and why we value life and when "life" begins. If you really want my perspective on abortion start a thread about atheists and abortion, or I'll start an "I'm an atheist ask me anything" thread in the break room if you want.

 

[Mark 1911]

Rambone, I agree with you to the extent that the same freedom of choice which is afforded to those who wish to sin is also afforded to those who wish not to sin or be forced to participate in it. Unfortunately, I think the direction we are heading in is just that. Christians will be hurt, and the new "order" will be OK with that. There is such a thing as true liberty, and there is such a thing as license. I believe our country's future is going to be a huge lesson on the difference between those two. Hopefully, we remain a free people. As freedom is ultimately from God, I believe a just society's laws must reflect that, or that freedom will ultimately be lost. That's why to me it is very ironic that so many members here on a website dedicated to advancing 2nd amendment freedom, see no danger in a government that passes such liberal laws. After all, it is the same government that is after our gun rights. That is no accident. Keep that in mind. Just because we haven't seen victims just yet, doesn't mean there won't be any. Christians have a right and a duty to shape the laws of society. Our history, our freedom, is based on just that. We have become complacent and think we can take our freedom for granted.

 

[indiucky]

I believe there are grey areas on when and why we value life and when "life" begins.

Science and any young man who has ever bought a condom know exactly when life begins.....Some people value all life and some folks think life is only for those who have value...Not much grey but I appreciate your thoughts and banter...Until a mod tells me otherwise I will keep responding....


I agree with what Steveh said....(Steveh and I are 50/50 guys on agreements)...You had seemed surprised that Christians believed in Liberty...I feigned surprise that Atheists believe in Liberty based on the preamble to the Declaration of Independence...Pointing out that we could all feign surprise should not be that big of a surprise...You "hoped that other Christians would learn from this" and I said I hope that Libertarians and Atheists can learn as well...Perhaps to see Life as a freedom that we all are entitled to (after all "Life" is considered a basic tenet of Freedom according to the preamble of the Declaration of Independence...We are not disagreeing on that...)I just want freedom to extend at least another six months into a persons life...Ideally nine months...

Freedom for all, even those just coming around the bend is what I believe in...I am not the only one....

 

[deal me in]

Science and any young man who has ever bought a condom know exactly when life begins.....Some people value all life and some folks think life is only for those who have value...Not much grey but I appreciate your thoughts and banter...Until a mod tells me otherwise I will keep responding....


I agree with what Steveh said....(Steveh and I are 50/50 guys on agreements)...You had seemed surprised that Christians believed in Liberty...I feigned surprise that Atheists believe in Liberty based on the preamble to the Declaration of Independence...Pointing out that we could all feign surprise should not be that big of a surprise...You "hoped that other Christians would learn from this" and I said I hope that Libertarians and Atheists can learn as well...Perhaps to see Life as a freedom that we all are entitled to (after all "Life" is considered a basic tenet of Freedoms according to the preamble...We are not disagreeing on that...)I just want freedom to extend at least another six months into a persons life...Ideally nine months...

Freedom for all, even those just coming around the bend is what I believe in...I am not the only one....

I was genuinely surprised for the reason I originally stated, but my surprise was due to my lack of imagination, not incompatibility between Christianity and libertarian beliefs. I don't want to address abortion in this thread because any time abortion is debated it turns the thread into an abortion thread. Abortion is controversial enough that it needs to be discussed in it's own thread imo.

 

[indiucky]

I was genuinely surprised for the reason I originally stated, but my surprise was due to my lack of imagination, not incompatibility between Christianity and libertarian beliefs. I don't want to address abortion in this thread because any time abortion is debated it turns the thread into an abortion thread. Abortion is controversial enough that it needs to be discussed in it's own thread imo.

Fair enough...One must realize that any thread involving Liberty and Religion will have that topic sneak in.....Plus it's INGO....Rambling in threads about everything under the sun is what we do...

 

[deal me in]

Fair enough...One must realize that any thread involving Liberty and Religion will have that topic sneak in.....Plus it's INGO....Rambling in threads about everything under the sun is what we do...

Agree, and I'm as guilty as anyone for side-tracking threads, for some reason, I just draw the line on abortion. This back and forth has me thinking about the topic so I'll find a way to share my thoughts on why it's not all black and white soon. In the mean time I'm off to play a poker tourney, so maybe we can discuss randomness and luck later on as well .

 

[steveh_131]

glocks are better than 1911's

 

[MisterChester]

glocks are better than 1911's

Better stand back, you're on the edge buddy.

 

[rambone]

Must admit I was shocked when I saw that OP and Steve were strong Christians after the religious discussion moratorium was lifted. I guess I find it a little strange that people who are so against centralized power in politics, embrace the ultimate central power.

I get the confusion, and that is why I wrote this thread. If I got to design my own country, it would be with a small government and lots of freedom, like I described in the OP. I can base that decision off of my preferences and reasoning. I actually have some tiny influence over the outcome (well, theoretically).

Theology decisions are not like that. I have no personal influence over whether God exists. I don't get a vote, and this is not a democracy. My preferences of the universe are irrelevant to God. There appear to be grave consequences if I make the wrong choice. I don't like consequences. I want to believe I can do whatever I want in life with no punishment. I want to be my own boss. I could raise my fist in the air for freedom from God, but it wouldn't make me any freer from the supernatural.

So rather than basing my theology on what I want, I need to weigh the evidence and make a logical conclusion.

Anyway, happy to see Christians who actually support small government instead of just claiming to. Hopefully, hearing your views will help convince other Christians to support pro-liberty values in government.

Yes, I definitely agree.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

This thread now needs an Internet poster:

 

[level.eleven]

This thread now needs an Internet poster:

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Now, now, you can't say that word.

 

[Woobie]

Did Howie Mandel become a priest?

 

[cobber]

This thread now needs an Internet poster:

Erm...

 

[Cerberus]

I find it funny, and quite ironic that over the coarse of mankind's history, the freer he is the more he becomes moral and turns to deities. And the less free- he becomes the more immoral and secular.

 

[HoughMade]

I find it funny, and quite ironic that over the coarse of mankind's history, the freer he is the more he becomes moral and turns to deities. And the less free- he becomes the more immoral and secular.

Didn't you hear, Christianity justifies oppression....somehow, or something.

 

[jamil]

This political thread needs a religious cartoon, should be OK under the new religious rules:

Might sound funny coming from a non-believer, but I think this is spot on. "Social justice" has displaced compassion and charity. And it's not working very well at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we don't do what he says then we'll be sent to hell.

My rememberance of such things is that one doesn't do good works to obtain heaven but that a holy spirit filled person will naturally do good works. I have met some really good Christian people who live that principle. And I've met some of the other kind.

Must admit that I was shocked to see atheists support the words "We hold these truths to be self evident...That all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights....and that are among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.." I find it a little strange that folks who love freedom so much think that freedom is given to them by a bunch of dead white guys with powdered wigs....Anyway, happy to see Atheists who actually support small Government and "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness" for all instead of just claiming too...

I had no idea one could believe in a Liberty that was granted to them by the courtesy of men alone.....Hopefully hearing your views will help convince other Libertarians to extend that precious commodity we call life to unborn children......

Why would non-believers look at dead white guys wearing powdered wigs as their creators or givers of rights? I think that this refers to natural rights. As an individual with sovereign thought, I have certain inalienable rights. My creator can be god or evolution or whatever. It doesn't matter how I became. It matters that I am.

glocks are better than 1911's

Oh, yeah. Tell us about your glockenspiel.

Didn't you hear, Christianity justifies oppression....somehow, or something.

It has, but you could easily argue that those weren't real Christians.