Random violence stats I've compiled

[BehindBlueI's]

How do the incidents with no shots fired overlap with the contact distance encounters? Can you tell us anything about what those looked like and where to focus contact distance work based on what you're seeing? General H2H, Weapon Access, retention, attempting to disarm the attacker, something more basic? Any idea what the typical duration of a contact distance fight is?

I'm up to 21 incidents now, and I'm almost 3 years back in my files. I think there's just not enough cases to break down into these subcategories yet and give good numbers. I can give some general thoughts and overviews, but that's not the goal for this particular thread.

 

[steveh_131]

This is very interesting. Thank you for doing this and sharing, BBI.

 

[Alamo]

This is what I am dealing with now. I spent the last year and a half or so converting to AIWB. I even sold a good IWB holster that I carried at 0300.

Now I either have to go back to that carry mode or figure out how to disguise my draw from AIWB.

Maybe if I said I keep my cash with my junk?

To me one of the advantages of AIWB is that the draw movement can be much less dramatic than with 3, and especially 4 o'clock carry - elbow and shoulder movement can be minimized. Now if someone is looking directly at you, watching for you to do something, then he is going to see you move regardless, but if your opponent is focused on something else because you are in a crowd, or he's looking at the cash drawer or whatever, then drawing from AIWB can be very subtle. I'd be interested to see what BBI's disguised draw is like, but yes, fodder for another thread.

 

[GunSlinger]

Great info BBI! Thanks for the real world stats!

 

[RobbyMaQ]

To me one of the advantages of AIWB is that the draw movement can be much less dramatic than with 3, and especially 4 o'clock carry - elbow and shoulder movement can be minimized. Now if someone is looking directly at you, watching for you to do something, then he is going to see you move regardless, but if your opponent is focused on something else because you are in a crowd, or he's looking at the cash drawer or whatever, then drawing from AIWB can be very subtle. I'd be interested to see what BBI's disguised draw is like, but yes, fodder for another thread.

Perhaps you should take his next class

 

[NHT3]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]Great info BBI and I'm thinking of taking the next class even though I took the last one.. Too bad you can't do them more often. I've never come away from any training that I felt like benefited me more.

[FONT=&quot]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]GSSF member[/FONT]
Glock Armorer-M&P Armorer [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&quot] /[/FONT][FONT=&quot] RSO[/FONT]

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Up to 30 now. 15 with firearm used in defense, 15 with defensive resistance but no firearm. Oddly enough, the win/loss/tie is now exactly the same.

Resisting with firearm:
10 wins, 1 tie, 4 losses

Resisting without a firearm:
10 wins, 1 tie, 4 losses

Vs single attacker
14 wins, 1 tie, 3 losses

Vs multiple attacker
6 win, 1 tie, 5 losses

Total for all incidents: 20 wins, 2 ties, 8 losses.

Victim's shots fired until resolution:
0 shots x7
1 shot x6
2 shots x1
3 shots x1

Victim's total shots fired
0 shots x5
1 shot x3
2 shots x2
3 shots x3
4 shots x1
11 shots x1

Suspect shots fired total
0 shots x14
1 shot x7
3 shots x1
Unknown x1 (at least one, but unknown how many in total)
N/A (non firearm) x7

I'll figure distances and the others later, but no additions have been over 7'.

Still no incidents were a reload mattered, where a flashlight mattered or where any sort of additional equipment was used (tourniquets, etc.)

 

[T.Lex]

Interesting (still).

So is it fair to say that, in the majority of cases (perhaps as many as 2/3), the suspect fires 0 or 1 shot when there is active resistance?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Interesting (still).

So is it fair to say that, in the majority of cases (perhaps as many as 2/3), the suspect fires 0 or 1 shot when there is active resistance?

Still a small sample, but 60% did not shoot. This could be anything from inoperative guns, toy guns, panicked flight, disabled prior to firing, etc.

 

[T.Lex]

Still a small sample, but 60% did not shoot. This could be anything from inoperative guns, toy guns, panicked flight, disabled prior to firing, etc.

Indeed. But, from a carrier's perspective, I feel a bit better knowing that if I'm going to get shot (back) at, it's most likely just going to be 1 time or less. Somewhat confirms (at least a little bit) that normal criminals use guns as talismans against lawful people (as opposed to gang rivalries and such). They leverage the magical quality that only firearms have to make their victims cower in fear, without necessarily intending to use them.

If the magic spell is broken, they resort to Plan B - GTFO.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Indeed. But, from a carrier's perspective, I feel a bit better knowing that if I'm going to get shot (back) at, it's most likely just going to be 1 time or less. Somewhat confirms (at least a little bit) that normal criminals use guns as talismans against lawful people (as opposed to gang rivalries and such). They leverage the magical quality that only firearms have to make their victims cower in fear, without necessarily intending to use them.

If the magic spell is broken, they resort to Plan B - GTFO.

They do not expect resistance, and will generally abandon the "reward" when the risk is high.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

45 total now.

Resisting with a firearm:
11 wins, 1 tie, 6 losses

Resisting without a firearm:
19 wins, 1 tie, 7 losses

Vs single attacker
20 wins, 1 tie, 6 losses

Vs multiple attackers
9 wins, 1 tie, 6 losses

Firearm vs single attacker
8 wins, 1 tie, 2 losses

Firearm vs multiple attacker
3 wins, 4 losses

Victim’s shot fired until resolution:
0 shots x 8
1 shots X 8
2 shots x 1
3 shots x 1

Victims total shots fired:
0 shots x 6
1 shots x 5
2 shots x 2
3 shots x 3
4 shots x 1
11 shots x 1

Firearms resist distances:
Contact x2
0’ – 3’ x 5
3’ – 7’ x 4
7’ – 21’ x 5
21’+ x 2 (one incident was a warning shot, the other was firing at suspects already fleeing)

Incidents were draw speed likely affected outcome:
8, 2 of which were off body carry

Incidents of reloading:
0
Reasons for losses when resisting with firearm:
Victim failed to deactivate thumb safety
Bystander fired warning shot, gun jammed, bystander left while crime continued
Victim carried on empty chamber, could not get round chambered
Victim shot from behind by suspect he did not see while engaged with suspects he could see
Victim shot and disabled prior to accessing his own weapon
Victim killed reaching for off body carry weapon

Reason for tie when resisting with firearm:
Victim reaching for off body carry shot prior to completing draw. Second victim then retrieved firearm and shot suspect.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Thanks for the update BBI. You are providing a better service with these than even the FBI IMHO. Their stats are too damned generic. Yours are quite specific and eye opening. (especially the losses) Keep it up.

EDIT: Rep Nazis have my hands tied. Bueller? Bueller?

 

[Gluemanz28]

Thank you very much BBI for the information.

Looking forward to the next class


I got him for +10 Cameramonkey

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Thank you very much BBI for the information.

Looking forward to the next class


I got him for +10 Cameramonkey

It seems like managing multiple contacts would be the best focus for a level 2 class, given the above results.

 

[Gluemanz28]

It seems like managing multiple contacts would be the best focus for a level 2 class, given the above results.

So pawn shop dude has a friend?

Can I just get on the list now

 

[dudley0]

Even without the details this is very thought provoking. Can't wait for the class...

 

[eldirector]

Yep. Thanks again, BBI.

Seems to be some trends emerging.

 

[brotherbill3]

Thanks. Tag to watch / review.

 

[GIJEW]

Great thread and thanks for the updates.

About the 19:7 record for resistance without a gun, what's the story there? they tried to mug Chuck Norris? Was is it "strong arm" robbery or did they have knives or clubs; did the defenders have weapons other than guns? Multiple assailants?