Random violence stats I've compiled

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • 88E30M50

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    12   0   0
    Dec 29, 2008
    22,748
    149
    Greenwood, IN
    This thread really makes you think. I've become a believer in the importance of the first three rounds and have focused on capability vs capacity. But, the 1911 is what I shoot best and I've been thinking that I've got the safety down pat. It pains me to hear BBI talk of only getting to 95% with a lot of practice and to be honest, I wonder if I've gotten it down as well as I think I do.

    This thread really makes me want to either go back to carrying the G23 and accept it as the best choice or, pick up a G30SF and just go all in on that choice. Like I said, this thread really gets the grey matter churning.
     

    Cameramonkey

    www.thechosen.tv
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    35   0   0
    May 12, 2013
    31,688
    77
    Camby area
    I definitely would carry chambered. Safety are just so often forgotten that I don't like them on a carry gun. But I see your point. I do have to say with alot of practice you can get almost just as fast with an empty chamber. You even can rack the gun with one hand using your belt on the sights and do that fairly quickly. I do not know how well this can be done under pressure. So empty chamber is not ideal but learning a one hand rack could be useful should you ever need to change mags which these statistics seem to indicate would be extremely unlikely.

    I'm still learning about concealed carry and these statistics are really helpful to help guide my efforts.

    Keep learning and carry one in the pipe. Period. If you dont feel safe carrying the gun ready to fire, get more training.

    Also carry so that you dont need two hands (or a hand and a thigh to rack the gun) to get it into the fight. Sometimes your support hand is busy keeping you from being dead (pushing off an attacker, trying to sheild your head from blows/knife, etc) and if you are catching blows/stabs, do you REALLY want to have to take the additional time to get that slide racked and into battery?

    And go to this. It WILL open your eyes. If you cant get into this one, DEFINITELY catch the next one.

    https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...concepts-level-1-riley-conservation-club.html
     

    bbucking

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 21, 2016
    35
    8
    Monroe County
    Keep learning and carry one in the pipe. Period. If you dont feel safe carrying the gun ready to fire, get more training.

    Also carry so that you dont need two hands (or a hand and a thigh to rack the gun) to get it into the fight. Sometimes your support hand is busy keeping you from being dead (pushing off an attacker, trying to sheild your head from blows/knife, etc) and if you are catching blows/stabs, do you REALLY want to have to take the additional time to get that slide racked and into battery?

    And go to this. It WILL open your eyes. If you cant get into this one, DEFINITELY catch the next one.

    https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...concepts-level-1-riley-conservation-club.html
    Agreed, thanks for the link. I've taken a class like this but this one seems a little better than the one I took.
     

    Bartman

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 29, 2010
    441
    28
    Fort Wayne
    I hate to engage in thread necromancy but I refer back to this information quite a bit and I had a question. With the encounters where the victim had a firearm, do you have a general sense that caliber played any role in the outcomes? I'm not trying to start a caliber war here but given how reloads and capacity don't seem to be factors that affected the outcome much, I wondered how much caliber of the victim's weapon played a role.

    I realize the sample size is probably too small to break down by caliber, I'm just interested in any overall impressions.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
    25,890
    113
    I hate to engage in thread necromancy but I refer back to this information quite a bit and I had a question. With the encounters where the victim had a firearm, do you have a general sense that caliber played any role in the outcomes? I'm not trying to start a caliber war here but given how reloads and capacity don't seem to be factors that affected the outcome much, I wondered how much caliber of the victim's weapon played a role.

    I realize the sample size is probably too small to break down by caliber, I'm just interested in any overall impressions.

    I have not tracked caliber. I originally considered doing so, but ultimately elected against it. There are so many variables in shot placement, ammunition type, etc. that I did not think I could draw any valid conclusions from doing so. There are folks, like DocGKR, who are much better suited to talk intelligently about caliber, bullet construction, and terminal ballistics than I am.

    What I can say is that it is completely irrelevant in SOME situations, those were the gun is displayed but not fired. It's probably a non-issue in situations where the defender fired but missed, although I won't say I'm sure because maybe the level of flash and noise affects the effectiveness of psychological stops.

    Oh, and it's a sticky post. I don't think it counts as thread necromancy, it's supposed to stay on the front page per the powers that be. :)
     

    jamil

    code ho
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 17, 2011
    60,169
    113
    Gtown-ish
    I hate to engage in thread necromancy but I refer back to this information quite a bit and I had a question. With the encounters where the victim had a firearm, do you have a general sense that caliber played any role in the outcomes? I'm not trying to start a caliber war here but given how reloads and capacity don't seem to be factors that affected the outcome much, I wondered how much caliber of the victim's weapon played a role.

    I realize the sample size is probably too small to break down by caliber, I'm just interested in any overall impressions.

    This is anecdotal, but maybe illustrative...

    There was an attack on an armed woman in a downtown Louisville parking garage that was widely reported around these parts. I may get some of the details of this narrative wrong, but the gist of it should be accurate. The woman was armed with, I think a Beretta Tomcat .32. The dude followed her to her car and attacked when she opened the door. He had a knife. There was a struggle. Her head got smashed on the steering wheel or dash. During the struggle she managed to get her Tomcat out and tried to fire it. She said she kept pulling the trigger and nothing happened. Then she got it to fire, and she ended up shooting the perp in the ass. He ran away--not limped--with a .32 in his ass. That was still a win.

    Now, I don't know why she couldn't get it to fire. Maybe the stress of the situation. Maybe she thought she was pulling the trigger and wasn't. Maybe malfunctioning gun or ammo. But she did eventually shoot the guy. And maybe if it were a 9mm it would have shattered some ass-bone and he'd have been incapacitated, and she'd be standing over him. But the .32 worked. The assault was aborted. Whatever the assailant had in mind to do to her didn't get done. She got out of it with minor injuries.

    I'm not gonna say that most encounters are against assailants who will give up when any firearm is introduced. But clearly she won even with a gun which did not incapacitate her attacker.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
    25,890
    113
    Quick update, since this thread is getting some attention again.

    Total number of resists is hovering around 70 at the moment, but that includes non-firearm resists as well. This will apply strictly to firearms resists and excludes bad shoots, such as shooting at fleeing unarmed suspects. Strictly outcomes broken down by win/loss:


    Wins:
    50% - suspect(s) fled without being injured
    32% - suspect(s) killed
    14% - suspect(s) fled/surrendered after being injured (non-incapacitating)
    5% - suspect(s) incapacitated and unable to continue to fight, but survived injuries.

    Losses:
    36% - Non-functional weapon (including both user error and mechanical failure)
    27% - "Mindset error" - failed to use functional firearm and was disarmed after presenting it.
    18% - Killed/incapacitated before accessing weapon (reaching for off body carry every time)
    18% - Killed/incapacitated by unseen assailant while engaging seen assailant
     

    MohawkSlim

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Mar 11, 2015
    992
    28
    15th Street, Bedford
    Thanks again for posting this stuff, BBI. Lots of good info to consider.


    For those of you who are "better shooters with the 1911" I wonder if you're really considering all the data when comparing it to another possible carry gun. I'd posit most of you are shooting it better because you're standing there about 21 feet from the target and taking your time to line up your sights, closing one eye, and then slowly squeezing that awesome single action trigger. You're busting fist-sized groups on your shoot-n-see and then smiling all the way home because of how good a shooter you are.

    I wonder, are you going to shoot the bad guys like that?

    I'd prefer to shoot them that way. I'd prefer to shoot them with my 1911. But, I reckon the chances are good that if and when I have to shoot a bad guy (or three) I'll be in a different position and probably at a different angle than what I'm comfortable with when I'm out there shooting my beautiful 1911. It might even be dark outside. I might even be getting punched in the face or stabbed.

    I challenge all of you 1911 shooters to holster your gun. Stand with your back to the target and have your buddy hit you with a pool noodle a couple of times while you turn and pull out your gun to shoot the IDPA bad guy. Next, try that with ANY OTHER GUN.

    See if your 1911 is still your best shooter.
     

    GIJEW

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Mar 14, 2009
    2,716
    47
    Quick update, since this thread is getting some attention again.

    Total number of resists is hovering around 70 at the moment, but that includes non-firearm resists as well. This will apply strictly to firearms resists and excludes bad shoots, such as shooting at fleeing unarmed suspects. Strictly outcomes broken down by win/loss:


    Wins:
    50% - suspect(s) fled without being injured
    32% - suspect(s) killed
    14% - suspect(s) fled/surrendered after being injured (non-incapacitating)
    5% - suspect(s) incapacitated and unable to continue to fight, but survived injuries.

    Losses:
    36% - Non-functional weapon (including both user error and mechanical failure)
    27% - "Mindset error" - failed to use functional firearm and was disarmed after presenting it.
    18% - Killed/incapacitated before accessing weapon (reaching for off body carry every time)
    18% - Killed/incapacitated by unseen assailant while engaging seen assailant
    How do these numbers relate to the total #of wins vs losses?
     

    jamil

    code ho
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 17, 2011
    60,169
    113
    Gtown-ish
    If those numbers scale nationwide, it sure shoots to hell the other side's claim that people who carry guns will just have them taken away and used on THEM.

    I wish that statistics like that were collected as a matter of policy. NIBRS collects a lot of information, but not such that can get to what this reveals.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Quick update, since this thread is getting some attention again.

    Total number of resists is hovering around 70 at the moment, but that includes non-firearm resists as well. This will apply strictly to firearms resists and excludes bad shoots, such as shooting at fleeing unarmed suspects. Strictly outcomes broken down by win/loss:


    Wins:
    50% - suspect(s) fled without being injured
    32% - suspect(s) killed
    14% - suspect(s) fled/surrendered after being injured (non-incapacitating)
    5% - suspect(s) incapacitated and unable to continue to fight, but survived injuries.

    Losses:
    36% - Non-functional weapon (including both user error and mechanical failure)
    27% - "Mindset error" - failed to use functional firearm and was disarmed after presenting it.
    18% - Killed/incapacitated before accessing weapon (reaching for off body carry every time)
    18% - Killed/incapacitated by unseen assailant while engaging seen assailant

    I find that to be some of the most interesting data you have presented. Thanks.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Thanks again for posting this stuff, BBI. Lots of good info to consider.


    For those of you who are "better shooters with the 1911" I wonder if you're really considering all the data when comparing it to another possible carry gun. I'd posit most of you are shooting it better because you're standing there about 21 feet from the target and taking your time to line up your sights, closing one eye, and then slowly squeezing that awesome single action trigger. You're busting fist-sized groups on your shoot-n-see and then smiling all the way home because of how good a shooter you are.

    I wonder, are you going to shoot the bad guys like that?

    I'd prefer to shoot them that way. I'd prefer to shoot them with my 1911. But, I reckon the chances are good that if and when I have to shoot a bad guy (or three) I'll be in a different position and probably at a different angle than what I'm comfortable with when I'm out there shooting my beautiful 1911. It might even be dark outside. I might even be getting punched in the face or stabbed.

    I challenge all of you 1911 shooters to holster your gun. Stand with your back to the target and have your buddy hit you with a pool noodle a couple of times while you turn and pull out your gun to shoot the IDPA bad guy. Next, try that with ANY OTHER GUN.

    See if your 1911 is still your best shooter.

    What the heck does a 1911 have to do with any of that? Safeties will get you killed?
     
    Top Bottom