Officer-involved shooting in Louisville

[jsharmon7]

I looked around and didn't see this posted yet. Link to the story and actual video of the shooting:

Louisville Metro Police shooting of black man criticized

According to some websites, there is already discontent in the community about why the Officer shot the man. Some believe he should have used less-lethal options first. The race of both parties involved has also become an issue in the community.

So, would you have shot someone in this situation? Would having pepper spray or a Taser at your disposal change your response?

EDIT: Just hit the "X" on the little tab that pops up for a survey. It worked for me anyway.

 

[Mark 1911]

Won't let me watch the video unless I take some stupid survey first.

 

[dirtybird]

If you're dumb enough to swing a flag pole at a cop you deserve to get shot. You know the potential risk involved.

 

[mkgr22]

Won't let me watch the video unless I take some stupid survey first.

Here's a different source for the story with the video.:

LMPD Chief Steve Conrad addresses aftermath of Saturday's office - WDRB 41 Louisville News

 

[pudly]

Here is another TV news version. Interesting how the one eyewitness' description was quite different from the actual event.

[video=youtube_share;zo13B07nryg]http://youtu.be/zo13B07nryg[/video]

 

[jbombelli]

If someone comes at ME like that with a flag pole, I'll shoot too.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

From what I can tell, I think the officer thought he was in fear for his life. Swinging a metal pole at somebody's head as they are backing up and get cornered against a car == yeah, I think it's a good shoot.

 

[SEIndSAM]

Moral of the story is, don't attack Cops and you will probably live through the encounter......

Attacking a Cop with a metal flag pole?? Guy had to be mentally unbalanced....

 

[Thor]

The perp was using it as a club, he could just as easily used it as a spear. I thought the officer actually showed some restraint in not shooting him before he closed.

 

[foszoe]

OP. I found your question nuanced. I think the officer went to an option he is trained to cosnider. I think the shoot is justifiable, but that wasn't necessarily your question.

As a civilian, I think I would have out ran him, used the car as interference, and or would have tried to grab the other end of the flagpole.

 

[BogWalker]

He came at him with a potentially lethal weapon. Seems like shooting was justifiable to me.

 

[Leo]

When a person attacks an uniformed Peace officer, he is not just attacking a man, but the entire civilization. People who want to allow Peace officers to be attacked by such individuals clearly show their lack of reasoning and intellect. They also prove they do not have the fiber to be fully vested citizens. As a law abiding, productive member of society, I am tired of listening to petty, child minded enemies of society demanding that thay have the ability to define the terms of citizenship.

However tragic the shooting was on tangible and intangible levels, it was the proper in every way.

 

[pudly]

He came at him with a potentially lethal weapon. Seems like shooting was justifiable to me.

Not just "came at him", but hit him with the flag pole hard enough to break it.

 

[Thor]

As a civilian, I think I would have out ran him, used the car as interference, and or would have tried to grab the other end of the flagpole.

As a civilian, I've trained with bow staves and know I could do a significant amount of lethal damage in a very short time. The responses you listed would not be effective. If someone came at me with a weapon like that I'd not wait to see if he/she had similar training. I would shoot.

 

[foszoe]

As a civilian, I've trained with bow staves and know I could do a significant amount of lethal damage in a very short time. The responses you listed would not be effective. If someone came at me with a weapon like that I'd not wait to see if he/she had similar training. I would shoot.

Based on the little bit of footage, did you think the guy had training in the art of bow staves?

I am trained in the art of avoiding conflict if necessary, not policing, and can all but guarantee that the time between the gun draw and the attack with the flag pole, I could have completed a behind the car end run and drawn without a shot being fired. It would take pretty decent training to engage that flagpole across a car. Nor am I saying that I would not have fired a shot at a later time, perhaps backing away from the car as an intermediary if I realized the guy was still intent on bodily harm so as to give myself a clear shot upon continued engagement, but my reaction to the flagpole charge would not have been that of the officer in question.

The responsibility of a police officer in that situation is different from a civilians. The goal is the same. Establish control of the situation.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

Attacking a LEO like this brings the cliche - Play Stupid Games = Win Stupid Prizes

As a civilian, I'm not sure I'd have interacted with this individual, so to me your question is moot...

 

[OMG-ZOMBIES]

If this shooting triggers protests I think all LEO's should call in sick for a week! At least in Louisville.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Based on the little bit of footage, did you think the guy had training in the art of bow staves?

I am trained in the art of avoiding conflict if necessary, not policing, and can all but guarantee that the time between the gun draw and the attack with the flag pole, I could have completed a behind the car end run and drawn without a shot being fired. It would take pretty decent training to engage that flagpole across a car. Nor am I saying that I would not have fired a shot at a later time, perhaps backing away from the car as an intermediary if I realized the guy was still intent on bodily harm so as to give myself a clear shot upon continued engagement, but my reaction to the flagpole charge would not have been that of the officer in question.

The responsibility of a police officer in that situation is different from a civilians. The goal is the same. Establish control of the situation.

Where were you trained and by who? What was covered? Basic psychology of a violent attack? OODA loop? Tactical positioning? Body language that invites an attack vs body language that helps prevent an attack? Body language clues attackers show immediately before the assault?

The officer made a better decision in two seconds under adrenaline dump falling back on his training, then you made with the benefit of hindsight, a cool mental state, and unlimited time to sit and formulate a plan.

To do your "end run" do you plan to turn your back on your assailant or do you plan to backpedal off a curb? Either way, you've increased your chances of being assaulted and decreased your odds of prevailing in the assault.

Turning your back increases the odds of being assaulted unless you KEEP running and are faster. This is conflict 101 stuff, if you're unfamiliar I'd recommend you pick up "On Killing" by LTC Grossman. Real simply put, when you turn your back you don't have a face, you are dehumanized, and it is psychologically easier to assault you. It also triggers a basic chase response, you are acting like prey and will be treated as such. So you've increased your odds of being assaulted. You've also lost sight of your attacker and reset your own OODA loop. You must now find him again visually, and you'll start with where you think he will be, if he's not there, you experience mental shock, and start over. You've lost a significant tactical advantage because you chose to not keep eyes on your attacker while he could keep eyes on you. He's already observed, oriented, and can decide and act at his leisure. You're starting at square 1, maybe twice.

Or you plan to back pedal off a curb while boxed in by a car. You're going to walk blindly and figure you're not going to stumble or fall as you back pedal off a drop at some point. Again, triggering a prey response (wobbling like your wounded or actually falling), resetting your own OODA loop again as you're surprised, and again giving your opponent the tactical advantage. Now you have to reorient, you've broken your fighting stance, and things are going sideways while you try to catch up.

Standing your ground, assertively ordering the suspect to stop, presenting a weapon, all things that more often than not cause an attacker with a non-projectile weapon to rethink their attack and surrender or flee. Hind sight says it didn't work in this case so the officer elevated his use of force accordingly. However by the numbers, his actions prevent more attacks than fleeing or stumbling does.

 

[Woobie]

It is sad that this man died, and I wish there were a way to prevent things like this from happening. But I don't attack cops. Actually, I don't attack anyone. But even if I did attack unarmed defenseless people, I still wouldn't attack a cop. It's a high risk / low reward proposition. And if I were to attack a cop, it would be with something a little more effective than a flagpole. This dude failed on a whole bunch of levels, and he paid for it.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

The officer had his gun pointed at the attacker and the attacker continued his assault. The guy with the flagpole initiated the violence, the cop stopped the attack.

Society needs to get off this kick where we expect an innocent person to bend over backwards to avoid harming their attacker.