Officer-involved shooting in Louisville

[mkgr22]

Society needs to get off this kick where we expect an innocent person to bend over backwards to avoid harming their attacker.

Well said!!

 

[foszoe]

Where were you trained and by who? What was covered? Basic psychology of a violent attack? OODA loop? Tactical positioning? Body language that invites an attack vs body language that helps prevent an attack? Body language clues attackers show immediately before the assault?<br>
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The officer made a better decision in two seconds under adrenaline dump falling back on his training, then you made with the benefit of hindsight, a cool mental state, and unlimited time to sit and formulate a plan.<br>
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To do your "end run" do you plan to turn your back on your assailant or do you plan to backpedal off a curb? Either way, you've increased your chances of being assaulted and decreased your odds of prevailing in the assault.<br>
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Turning your back increases the odds of being assaulted unless you KEEP running and are faster. This is conflict 101 stuff, if you're unfamiliar I'd recommend you pick up "On Killing" by LTC Grossman. Real simply put, when you turn your back you don't have a face, you are dehumanized, and it is psychologically easier to assault you. It also triggers a basic chase response, you are acting like prey and will be treated as such. So you've increased your odds of being assaulted. You've also lost sight of your attacker and reset your own OODA loop. You must now find him again visually, and you'll start with where you think he will be, if he's not there, you experience mental shock, and start over. You've lost a significant tactical advantage because you chose to not keep eyes on your attacker while he could keep eyes on you. He's already observed, oriented, and can decide and act at his leisure. You're starting at square 1, maybe twice.<br>
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Or you plan to back pedal off a curb while boxed in by a car. You're going to walk blindly and figure you're not going to stumble or fall as you back pedal off a drop at some point. Again, triggering a prey response (wobbling like your wounded or actually falling), resetting your own OODA loop again as you're surprised, and again giving your opponent the tactical advantage. Now you have to reorient, you've broken your fighting stance, and things are going sideways while you try to catch up.<br>
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Standing your ground, assertively ordering the suspect to stop, presenting a weapon, all things that more often than not cause an attacker with a non-projectile weapon to rethink their attack and surrender or flee. Hind sight says it didn't work in this case so the officer elevated his use of force accordingly. However by the numbers, his actions prevent more attacks than fleeing or stumbling does.

Your entire answer is that of an officer answering from the officers perspective. Once again, I am answering as me, a civilian, and of course some is speculation, but in the off camera time between where the officer begins his weapon draw to where the flag waver enters the screen, I could easily have made it behind the car as a civilian, with gun drawn. Now I would not be ordering anyone to stop, presenting a weapon as an authority figure because I am a civilian. I would see the grab for the flag pole, interpret that as a threat, and begin a retreat at that point. The officer made a decision from an officers standpoint that you support. Are you saying that you expect a civilian, neglecting ignorance, to react in this situation, exactly the same as the officer? He backpedalled and made it to the side of the car, I would have had a head start.

 

[Woobie]

Your entire answer is that of an officer answering from the officers perspective. Once again, I am answering as me, a civilian, and of course some is speculation, but in the off camera time between where the officer begins his weapon draw to where the flag waver enters the screen, I could easily have made it behind the car as a civilian, with gun drawn. Now I would not be ordering anyone to stop, presenting a weapon as an authority figure because I am a civilian. I would see the grab for the flag pole, interpret that as a threat, and begin a retreat at that point. The officer made a decision from an officers standpoint that you support. Are you saying that you expect a civilian, neglecting ignorance, to react in this situation, exactly the same as the officer? He backpedalled and made it to the side of the car, I would have had a head start.

The psychological predator response would be the same, cop or not. The tactics are either sound or not, regardless of whether you are a cop or not. The standard for a good defensive shoot is the same, cop or not. I don't necessarily see the distinction.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Hey BBI, I'm headed to Eskinazi to tell the trauma surgeons that they are a bunch of ****ing retards and are doing it all wrong. Pick you up in 20.

 

[Thor]

So, would you have shot someone in this situation? Would having pepper spray or a Taser at your disposal change your response?

So, directly answering this question, which does not talk about the actions leading up to the attack. I would not use pepper spray, I would not use a Taser, being attacked by someone with a potentially deadly weapon I would respond likewise.

Now, given a hundred hypothetical questions and potential responses because well, I would have done it differently, we can chew the fat all day...my answer is still draw, shoot.

 

[foszoe]

Hey BBI, I'm headed to Eskinazi to tell the trauma surgeons that they are a bunch of ****ing retards and are doing it all wrong. Pick you up in 20.

Wow, are you a surgeon? Otherwise, I would not presume to tell a surgeon how to do his job.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Wow, are you a surgeon? Otherwise, I would not presume to tell a surgeon how to do his job.

But you presume to tell the police how to do theirs.

 

[mkgr22]

Hey BBI, I'm headed to Eskinazi to tell the trauma surgeons that they are a bunch of ****ing retards and are doing it all wrong. Pick you up in 20.

Wow, are you a surgeon? Otherwise, I would not presume to tell a surgeon how to do his job.

View attachment 39269

 

[Woobie]

Wow I didn't think he would take the bait, but he bit hard. Nice catch, Frank.

 

[foszoe]

So, directly answering this question, which does not talk about the actions leading up to the attack. I would not use pepper spray, I would not use a Taser, being attacked by someone with a potentially deadly weapon I would respond likewise.

Now, given a hundred hypothetical questions and potential responses because well, I would have done it differently, we can chew the fat all day...my answer is still draw, shoot.

I wouldn't have resorted to pepper spray or a taser, the firearm would be my weapon of choice in that situation too. I don't understand the use of a teaser or pepper spray in situations other than when there is numerical superiority.

In an unrelated note for the officers I seem to have riled up, do you still train with batons?

 

[foszoe]

View attachment 39269

If you wish to see it that way. I see it as the officers defending an officer. The only one that hasn't jumped the bandwagon is Denny. I know the OP is, but he seems to be more even keeled. I never said the officer was wrong, ever. That is quite different from Frank's post. If the OP had asked the question was the officer justified or should he have taken another action then this discussion would never have taken place. There are more than 2 sec between the draw and the attack, more like 5? 1.5 to cover 21 feet, given the difference between the role of me, a civilian, and the officer, that should have allowed a strategic retreat. Asked what I would do I answered honestly.

 

[foszoe]

But you presume to tell the police how to do theirs.

Where? If I did I owe you an apology.

 

[Denny347]

In an unrelated note for the officers I seem to have riled up, do you still train with batons?

Yes, expandable Monadnoks. They really are not the same as striking with a PR24 or similar. They have no mass in them. I'd rather serve up a side kick to the Common Peroneal than try using this thin baton. I don't have to get as close with my leg.

 

[Thor]

Where? If I did I owe you an apology.

I believe that by questioning if anyone was a surgeon, to discredit any comment made, that you opened yourself up to that criticism. Just my

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Black letter self-defense. Hard to get much cleaner than that.

 

[Thor]

Yes, expandable Monadnoks. They really are not the same as striking with a PR24 or similar. They have no mass in them. I'd rather serve up a side kick to the Common Peroneal than try using this thin baton. I don't have to get as close with my leg.

As Clausewitz said (paraphrase I'm sure) "we should not blunt our swords to make warfare less brutal because eventually someone will come along with a sharp sword and hack our arms off". I think the same goes for clubs for dealing with violent criminals...now where was that oak bow staff with the steel end caps...

 

[jbombelli]

Where? If I did I owe you an apology.

You said what YOU would do differently which in essence is the same thing.

So as I see it you owe your apology.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

If you wish to see it that way. I see it as the officers defending an officer. The only one that hasn't jumped the bandwagon is Denny. I know the OP is, but he seems to be more even keeled. I never said the officer was wrong, ever. That is quite different from Frank's post. If the OP had asked the question was the officer justified or should he have taken another action then this discussion would never have taken place. There are more than 2 sec between the draw and the attack, more like 5? 1.5 to cover 21 feet, given the difference between the role of me, a civilian, and the officer, that should have allowed a strategic retreat. Asked what I would do I answered honestly.

Having been involved in a shooting that was second-guessed by people that weren't there when I pulled the trigger is my Agent Orange and it flares up when it happens repeatedly in the media and on pro-gun sites like INGO.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Your entire answer is that of an officer answering from the officers perspective. Once again, I am answering as me, a civilian, and of course some is speculation, but in the off camera time between where the officer begins his weapon draw to where the flag waver enters the screen, I could easily have made it behind the car as a civilian, with gun drawn. Now I would not be ordering anyone to stop, presenting a weapon as an authority figure because I am a civilian. I would see the grab for the flag pole, interpret that as a threat, and begin a retreat at that point. The officer made a decision from an officers standpoint that you support. Are you saying that you expect a civilian, neglecting ignorance, to react in this situation, exactly the same as the officer? He backpedalled and made it to the side of the car, I would have had a head start.

Still waiting to hear who trained you and where. Also curious as to how you plan to get behind the car and how you'll overcome the obvious tactical and psychological pitfalls I discussed, which are the same for cops or not-cops.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Hey BBI, I'm headed to Eskinazi to tell the trauma surgeons that they are a bunch of ****ing retards and are doing it all wrong. Pick you up in 20.

Ok. Give me another 20 minutes. I'm almost done at the airport telling the pilots how to land their planes.