NWI INDIANA GUN OWNERS. #24 Lets face it we all love to shoot and eat

[nonobaddog]

Once you get your 50 quality posts --- you get the secret INGO tattoo --

 

[actaeon277]

Not sure which is worse.
The nose
Or the 'moustache'

 

[nonobaddog]

Not sure which is worse.
The nose
Or the 'moustache'

Right. She should have shaved.

 

[actaeon277]

Right. She should have shaved.

I was probably 14 and shaved more than that.

 

[JamesV]

NWI M&E 2 PM Saturday, April 1st.

Shoops, Crown Point, IN.

James n AlexV and 2A Tom.

Up for whatever time.

 

[chef larry]

Tuesday morning and still on the lookout for Spring not Fall.

 

[kaveman]

NWI M&E 2 PM Saturday, April 1st.

Shoops, Crown Point, IN.

James n AlexV and 2A Tom.

I wasn't planning on going to CP but combining with a M&E would get me out of the house. Either day, any time.

For reals,....not a joke.

 

[Snapdragon]

I'm not sure right now about the M&E. Mama Snap is still pretty weak and not eating much.

 

[melensdad]

New ammo arrived yesterday morning.

Liberty Overwatch
9mm +P ammo, 70 grain lead free/nickel plated copper JHP projectiles, claims to be traveling 1740 feet per second (4" test barrel), delivers 472 foot pounds of energy.

Shooting it from a sub-compact 18-ounce Springfield Hellcat I have some quick thoughts. YIKES, don't want to be in front of this gun, the blast is somewhat more exciting than when traditional weight bullets that fly out the barrel at traditional speeds.

OBSERVATIONS:

• Extra loud BANG when you touch off the trigger
• RECOIL??? What recoil? Honestly 1/2 the felt recoil of traditional 147 grain self defense ammo
• Reliable cycling (so far)
• LIGHT weight, not just the bullet but the components, so carrying a full magazine feels like carrying an empty magazine.
• I like it

I can see why this is attractive for personal defense. Low chances of over-penetration. Seriously LOW recoil, so fast follow up shots, no problems for people with arthritic hands, little old ladies, etc. And the low weight is weird, feels like carrying an empty gun. As for the loud blast noise, hey, if you fire off a round in your house ANY blast is going to sound loud but you probably NEED to fire off the round. At my range, it was noticeably a bit louder. Curious to see how the muzzle blast is different in LOW LIGHT conditions?

 

[radar8756]

Morning ... new forecast with lower temps

 

[Ballstater98]

404 number (Georgia) from the CDC got blocked a week ago. Now I got a voice-mail wanting me to take a child immunization survey and call them back.

 

[nonobaddog]

New ammo arrived yesterday morning.

Liberty Overwatch
9mm +P ammo, 70 grain lead free/nickel plated copper JHP projectiles, claims to be traveling 1740 feet per second (4" test barrel), delivers 472 foot pounds of energy.

Shooting it from a sub-compact 18-ounce Springfield Hellcat I have some quick thoughts. YIKES, don't want to be in front of this gun, the blast is somewhat more exciting than when traditional weight bullets that fly out the barrel at traditional speeds.

OBSERVATIONS:

• Extra loud BANG when you touch off the trigger
• RECOIL??? What recoil? Honestly 1/2 the felt recoil of traditional 147 grain self defense ammo
• Reliable cycling (so far)
• LIGHT weight, not just the bullet but the components, so carrying a full magazine feels like carrying an empty magazine.
• I like it

I can see why this is attractive for personal defense. Low chances of over-penetration. Seriously LOW recoil, so fast follow up shots, no problems for people with arthritic hands, little old ladies, etc. And the low weight is weird, feels like carrying an empty gun. As for the loud blast noise, hey, if you fire off a round in your house ANY blast is going to sound loud but you probably NEED to fire off the round. At my range, it was noticeably a bit louder. Curious to see how the muzzle blast is different in LOW LIGHT conditions?

Personally I would want to chronograph them out of a Hellcat and use gel to make sure the hollow points were functioning and were achieving expansion as well as verify there was sufficient penetration. Only then would I even consider carrying these. YMMV.

 

[kaveman]

That's the problem with gimmick rounds,.....all you have to go by is the marketing that the manufacturer puts out. Very little serious independent testing gets done. I'm a whole lot more comfortable with top tier defensive ammo that's accepted by LE. Something that I can actually afford to put a few hundred rounds through MY gun to assure function.

That said, I understand that sometimes you're trying to do something that isn't 'standard', like looking for a seriously low recoil round. In that case, best you can do is look critically at the 'advertised' advantages and find as many youtube tests as you can,.....and still put at least a hundred of those expensive rounds downrange to be somewhat sure your gun likes them. And then you need to stock up on a few hundred more because if they change or goob you're back to square one.

 

[kaveman]

Problem with the high vel, low wt is that you'll get impressive expansion. But when you do get impressive expansion you won't get any penetration because there isn't enough momentum to push that expanded bullet deep. If given a choice between expansion and penetration I'll take penetration every time. With modern ammo you usually don't need to choose one or the other,......unless you go too light/fast to penetrate or too heavy/slow to expand. By sticking to 124-147 you're safely inside the good range.

But if I was a manufacturer trying to sell 'specialty' ammo for a premium I'd go too light/too fast every time because it makes for fantastic marketing photos.

 

[2A_Tom]

I'm not sure right now about the M&E. Mama Snap is still pretty weak and not eating much.

We could meet at your house.

Make a pot roast and tell us when.

 

[melensdad]

That's the problem with gimmick rounds,.....all you have to go by is the marketing that the manufacturer puts out. Very little serious independent testing gets done. I'm a whole lot more comfortable with top tier defensive ammo that's accepted by LE. Something that I can actually afford to put a few hundred rounds through MY gun to assure function.

That said, I understand that sometimes you're trying to do something that isn't 'standard', like looking for a seriously low recoil round. In that case, best you can do is look critically at the 'advertised' advantages and find as many youtube tests as you can,.....and still put at least a hundred of those expensive rounds downrange to be somewhat sure your gun likes them. And then you need to stock up on a few hundred more because if they change or goob you're back to square one.

There is a reason I bought a 1/2 CASE of this ammo to test.

But as to the various statements, there is actually quite a bit of data to support these rounds for personal defense in up close & personal ranges.

These are NOT 'gimmick' rounds. They have been around for a couple decades. Heck I was shooting 120 grain ALUMINUM hollow points out of a .458 caliber rifle a decade ago. They were designed for personal defense and close quarters combat. The entire round didn't really catch on with the L.E. community, but the bullets were viable. What those aluminum rounds would do to a rogue watermelon, trying to break free from his herd and stampede into the other crops was a thing to behold. Truly astonishing how devastating those rounds were in performance.

Realize we are talking about shots in the range of 1 to 30 feet with a typical range under 12 feet. Penetration is not an issue, velocity loss is not an issue, and expansion is not an issue.

There are plenty videos showing lightweight rounds fragmenting properly and penetrating body cavity depth in gelatin.

The biggest downside with this stuff may be from multiple layers of very heavy clothing. That is actually one reason I purchased a "heavy" ultralight round and shied away from the 50 and 60 grain stuff. But the newer nickel plated copper rounds probably are still better than the older softer rounds that earned early ultralight bullets a poor reputation 20 years ago. Heck look at hunting rounds, the Barnes bullets have been around for 20+ years, are all copper, and were originally thought to be inferior but now are considered premium performance rounds.

I do understand why people are skeptical.

But I also see pretty dramatic improvements in performance.

 

[jedi]

https://www.covid.gov/tests

4 free test kits per household. You already paid for them in taxes.

 

[B40B]

Not sure if this is considered new school thinking in terms of what ammo to carry... But I carry/load good ol fashion ball ammo. It's what I used in the military, it's what I use to practice with...it's just what I know the best and adds to the confidence of landing shots where I intend them to be.

Thoughts?

 

[nonobaddog]

Realize we are talking about shots in the range of 1 to 30 feet with a typical range under 12 feet. Penetration is not an issue, velocity loss is not an issue, and expansion is not an issue.

Even at short ranges - penetration is always an issue, expansion is always an issue.

Heck look at hunting rounds, the Barnes bullets have been around for 20+ years, are all copper, and were originally thought to be inferior but now are considered premium performance rounds.

Yes Barnes makes all copper bullets but they are not a great example for your point. Barnes does not make the ultra light bullets. I certainly bet they have looked into it. They make 115gr XPB bullets for their Vor-Tx ammunition and 115gr TAC-XP bullets for their TAC-XPD ammunition, nothing lighter for 9mm. They do make 80 gr and 90 gr bullets but they only sell those in 380 ammunition when the ammunition is manufactured. Maybe you could buy those and load them in 9mm yourself.

But I also see pretty dramatic improvements in performance.

My concern would be verifying that velocity and performance out of the Hellcat barrel. Maybe some of the videos you mention use a similarly short barrel. That would be a great indicator.

 

[melensdad]

Not sure if this is considered new school thinking in terms of what ammo to carry... But I carry/load good ol fashion ball ammo. It's what I used in the military, it's what I use to practice with...it's just what I know the best and adds to the confidence of landing shots where I intend them to be.

Thoughts?

FMJ round nose (ball) ammo is used in the military because expanding rounds are forbidden by the Geneva Convention.

I do like the concept of practicing with what you carry. Prior to my current ammo, I practiced with 124 grain ammo. I carried 124gr ammo. I will probably do most of my practice with 124 grain ammo because I have cases of that. But I bought plenty of the ultralight 70 grain stuff so I can determine it properly functions and hits point of aim. As of now, I'm satisfied.

Same applies to guns. I'm a 1911 guy at my core. When I starting playing with 9mm pistols I gravitated to CZ75 and Browning HiPower pistols for the simple reason that the controls on those guns were identically placed and operated identically to a 1911.

Eventually I switched to a Glock for weight reduction and capacity increases. Now to a S.A. Hellcat, which operates pretty much the same way as a Glock, but is even smaller while still carrying 11 rounds in a flush fit magazine, something I can't get in the slightly larger, clunkier, and heavier G26.