NWI INDIANA GUN OWNERS. #24 Lets face it we all love to shoot and eat

[melensdad]

My concern would be verifying that velocity and performance out of the Hellcat barrel. Maybe some of the videos you mention use a similarly short barrel. That would be a great indicator.

This concern applies to ALL ammo. From EVERY manufacturer. In ALL sub-compact short barrel guns.

Pretty much same can be said about expansion and penetration of bullets out of ALL sub-compact short barrel guns. So you need to have a lot more access to gelatin, chronographs and ammo than I have access to to test all these things.

We do know that short barrel guns and heavy bullets (3" 9mm, 147gr) tend to underperform, that has been shown time and time again. That is pretty undisputed.

 

[nonobaddog]

At BallisticsByTheInch (http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html) their testing shows bullets out of a 3" barrel are 94.1% as fast as out of a 4" barrel and 89.6% as fast as out of a 5" barrel. That is a little better than I would have expected.

That 1740 fps would calculate to 1637 fps and the energy would drop from 470 to 416.

 

[B40B]

FMJ round nose (ball) ammo is used in the military because expanding rounds are forbidden by the Geneva Convention.

I do like the concept of practicing with what you carry. Prior to my current ammo, I practiced with 124 grain ammo. I carried 124gr ammo. I will probably do most of my practice with 124 grain ammo because I have cases of that. But I bought plenty of the ultralight 70 grain stuff so I can determine it properly functions and hits point of aim. As of now, I'm satisfied.

Same applies to guns. I'm a 1911 guy at my core. When I starting playing with 9mm pistols I gravitated to CZ75 and Browning HiPower pistols for the simple reason that the controls on those guns were identically placed and operated identically to a 1911.

Eventually I switched to a Glock for weight reduction and capacity increases. Now to a S.A. Hellcat, which operates pretty much the same way as a Glock, but is even smaller while still carrying 11 rounds in a flush fit magazine, something I can't get in the slightly larger, clunkier, and heavier G26.

Practicing with what you carry is my reasoning. I consider over penetration for an in-home use situation, but then fall back to military days. If you hit mass with certain cartridges...they don't typically come out the other side, if they do there isn't any zip left on them to worry about.

Do you have any worries of a liberally selected jury and the thought of expanding/penetrating bullets? (Geneva convention consideration) Not allowed in war, but to protect your house? I have no issue of a person using any means necessary to protect his home, just curious of others thought process.

 

[Ballstater98]

Explains all the traffic here.

 

[Ballstater98]

Tried for trout this morning at francher lake but wow was that wind brutal we didn’t last long and by how many people we saw over the weekend probably already fished out. I wish the weather was like it is now this morning.

Just got my new license. This post was my reminder.

 

[Ballstater98]

https://www.covid.gov/tests

4 free test kits per household. You already paid for them in taxes.

Wife ordered them. Here's to hoping to never use them.

 

[KLB]

https://www.covid.gov/tests

4 free test kits per household. You already paid for them in taxes.

Wrong. That money was borrowed.

Why even bother at this point? Does it matter if you are sick with Covid instead of some other virus?

 

[darkkevin]

Wrong. That money was borrowed.

Why even bother at this point? Does it matter if you are sick with Covid instead of some other virus?

did it ever?

 

[actaeon277]

Practicing with what you carry is my reasoning. I consider over penetration for an in-home use situation, but then fall back to military days. If you hit mass with certain cartridges...they don't typically come out the other side, if they do there isn't any zip left on them to worry about.

Do you have any worries of a liberally selected jury and the thought of expanding/penetrating bullets? (Geneva convention consideration) Not allowed in war, but to protect your house? I have no issue of a person using any means necessary to protect his home, just curious of others thought process.

Well, police carry those rounds, so that's your defense.
As for planning around a jury's thoughts, they can go after you for carrying FMJ, or for not carrying FMJ.

As for the argument about the 'military', well in the military you're surrounded by a bunch of other guys shooting. So, the military doesn't concern itself with 'less effective on a SINGLE round basis'.
Also, the MILITARY DOES use hollowpoints.. in the US. Guards on guard duty can carry them.

 

[B40B]

Well, police carry those rounds, so that's your defense.
As for planning around a jury's thoughts, they can go after you for carrying FMJ, or for not carrying FMJ.

As for the argument about the 'military', well in the military you're surrounded by a bunch of other guys shooting. So, the military doesn't concern itself with 'less effective on a SINGLE round basis'.
Also, the MILITARY DOES use hollowpoints.. in the US. Guards on guard duty can carry them.

Think you might have missed what I was trying to say, FMJ is probably the most used/produced type of bullet out there compared to a bullet that is designed to penetrate and expand. The comparison could be twisted negatively not in your favor.

My military example was only to point out that is what I trained with, not the escalation of force that you have when fighting as a team.

 

[jedi]

Think you might have missed what I was trying to say, FMJ is probably the most used/produced type of bullet out there compared to a bullet that is designed to penetrate and expand. The comparison could be twisted negatively not in your favor.

My military example was only to point out that is what I trained with, not the escalation of force that you have when fighting as a team.

Guy, the indiana attorney on INGO, who has defended Indiana cases and studied the various law cases in Indiana once said that the type of ammo (fmj, commercial, home defense, reloads, etc,) has not come up in a criminal trial.

However his opinion was to use whatever law enforcement uses (hp, home defense stuff) as most juries will see that as you are using what the police is using which is state approved.

 

[nonobaddog]

Well, police carry those rounds, so that's your defense.
As for planning around a jury's thoughts, they can go after you for carrying FMJ, or for not carrying FMJ.

As for the argument about the 'military', well in the military you're surrounded by a bunch of other guys shooting. So, the military doesn't concern itself with 'less effective on a SINGLE round basis'.
Also, the MILITARY DOES use hollowpoints.. in the US. Guards on guard duty can carry them.

The military has its M1153 9mm round which is a hollowpoint designed for the Sig 320(I should say M17, M18). I left active duty over 50 years ago so I have no idea if they use them, I just know they have them.

 

[melensdad]

Do you have any worries of a liberally selected jury and the thought of expanding/penetrating bullets? (Geneva convention consideration) Not allowed in war, but to protect your house? I have no issue of a person using any means necessary to protect his home, just curious of others thought process.

No worries.

My worry is only that it is a "justified" shooting in the eyes of both the laws of man and laws of God.

If the shooting falls into the category of justified, then the state of Indiana has laws on the books to PREVENT the criminal (should he/she survive) or any surviving family, from suing me in a civil court. If the shooting falls into the category of justified, then the state of Indiana will not prosecute me criminally. So long as I'm defending myself, my family, from harm in my home or in my life situation then there is no real reason to worry.

People worry about "custom guns" and extra capacity magazines and hollow point bullets and all sorts of other things that the media keys in on but within the confines of Indiana law, a justified shooting is a justified shooting and there is no criminal or civil prosecution even if you shoot the bad guy with a cannon. See Jedi's comment above about what Indiana gun attorney Guy Redfield (sp?) has to say about bullets.

AS FOR OVER-PENETRATION, that is actually a PERSONAL concern for a couple reasons. These are my thoughts, based on my understanding of the law and based on actually shooting bullets into/thru drywall, plywood, wood siding and even bullet resistant ballistic shielding,

- Shoot THRU a bad guy and hit anyone else and the law MAY not protect you from civil or criminal charges.​

​

- Shoot thru one of your home's walls and you may hit one of your family members or pets and that could be bad.​

So I am very much against, personally, using FMJ "ball" ammo for personal defense. I want the round to dump ALL its energy when it enters a designated target. The lighter weight rounds tend to NOT over penetrate and are considered safer inside homes. Also I do NOT want a round that will punch through 6 or 8 or 10 sheets of drywall, I actually want it to stop on the 2nd sheet of drywall. FMJ easily punches a clean hole through more than a half dozen sheets of drywall. If you have a wood clad home, it will punch through drywall, insulation, plywood sheeting and the exterior wood clapboards.

 

[gsxr219]

did it ever?

Bingo!

 

[melensdad]

At BallisticsByTheInch (http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html) their testing shows bullets out of a 3" barrel are 94.1% as fast as out of a 4" barrel and 89.6% as fast as out of a 5" barrel. That is a little better than I would have expected.

That 1740 fps would calculate to 1637 fps and the energy would drop from 470 to 416.

Run the 147 grain Federal HydraShok through your calculator and see how anemic it is in terms of energy compared to the lightweight bullets. So much of what we think about with ballistics is framed on energy levels at 50, 100, 200 yards. But in a self defense situation we are talking about ballistics at roughly 6, 12 or 30 FEET.

 

[nonobaddog]

I actually want it to stop on the 2nd sheet of drywall.

I would never consider that a round that is good for defense - or much of anything. That is less penetration than a .22LR hollowpoint.

 

[melensdad]

did it ever?

YES for some of us, and literally I mean people like me, who are immunosuppressed and immunocompromised.

I never worried about what OTHERS did, but I did worry about protecting myself. 3+ years later I don't worry about it. Covid mutated enough that even old sick people survive. But there was a rational reason why SOME SELECT people were extra careful. Me being careful does not require others to do anything. It requires(ed) me to do things.

 

[nonobaddog]

Run the 147 grain Federal HydraShok through your calculator and see how anemic it is in terms of energy compared to the lightweight bullets. So much of what we think about with ballistics is framed on energy levels at 50, 100, 200 yards. But in a self defense situation we are talking about ballistics at roughly 6, 12 or 30 FEET.

Have you seen the discussions about energy vs momentum vs other hybrid terms in stopping power?

 

[melensdad]

I would never consider that a round that is good for defense - or much of anything. That is less penetration than a .22LR hollowpoint.

I'm not sure there is a bullet that would stop at the 2nd sheet of drywall. But I don't want to kill someone in the next room.

Lightweight bullets tend to fragment apart on the 2nd or 3rd sheet of drywall, the mass of the bullet then disperses. It would still kill someone. Maybe I should just hope for better drywall.

 

[melensdad]

Have you seen the discussions about energy vs momentum vs other hybrid terms in stopping power?

I have, lots of ignorance in a lot of conversations.

I have also tested a lot of rounds in a lot of different media up to and including bullet proof/resistant wall panels.