"Mindset" from warrior experience

[the1kidd03]

I just stumbled on this through Facebook. So, I can't really link it directly (for those who don't have Facebook.) So, I'll quote it directly.

I'm posting this here because it directly relates to the goals of training in terms of psychological effect (mindset.) A few key points in it particularly hit home with me and which I find especially true. Even though it may be put into the context of war, the principles still apply to life or death situations regardless of context, location, etc. Much of my psychology research ties well into/supports these principles as well. Just thought it would be something worth sharing for the warrior minded followers of INGO or those with combat vet friends/relatives. There are things to learn from here for those who wish to prepare for the possibility of facing death and which will directly affect a person after such experience.

10 THINGS YOUR COMBAT VET WANTS YOU TO KNOW

1. He/she is addicted to war, although he loves you. War is horrible, but there is nothing like a life-and-death fight to make you feel truly alive. The adrenaline rush is tremendous, and can never be replaced. Succeeding in combat defines a warrior, places him in a brotherhood where he is always welcome and understood. The civilian world has its adrena...line junkies as well; just ask any retired firefighter, police officer, or emergency room staff if they miss it.

2. Living for you is harder. It would be easy for him to die for you because he loves you. Living for you, which is what you actually want, is harder for him. It is even harder for him if you are smart and do not need him to rescue you, since rescuing is something he does really well. If you are very competent at many things, he may at times question if you need him at all. He may not see that you stay with him as a conscious choice.

3. “The training kicks in” means something very different to him. It is direct battle doctrine that when ambushed by a superior force, the correct response is “Apply maximum firepower and break contact.” A warrior has to be able to respond to threat with minimal time pondering choices. While this is life-saving in combat, it is not helpful in the much slower-paced civilian world. A better rule in the civilian world would be to give a reaction proportionate to the provocation. Small provocation, small response (but this could get you killed on the battlefield). When the training becomes second nature, a warrior might take any adrenaline rush as a cue to “apply maximum firepower.” This can become particularly unfortunate if someone starts to cry. Tears are unbearable to him; they create explosive emotions in him that can be difficult for him to control. Unfortunately, that can lead to a warrior responding to strong waves of guilt by applying more “maximum firepower” on friends, family, or unfortunate strangers.

4. He/she is afraid to get attached to anyone because he has learned that the people you love get killed, and he cannot face that pain again. He may make an exception for his children (because they cannot divorce him), but that will be instinctual and he will probably not be able to explain his actions.

5. He knows the military exists for a reason. The sad fact is that a military exists ultimately to kill people and break things. This was true of our beloved “Greatest Generation” warriors of WWII, and it remains true to this day. Technically, your warrior may well be a killer, as are his friends. He may have a hard time seeing that this does not make him a murderer. Although they may look similar at first glance, he is a sheepdog protecting the herd, not a wolf trying to destroy it. The emotional side of killing in combat is complex. He may not know how to feel about what he’s seen or done, and he may not expect his feelings to change over time. Warriors can experiences moments of profound guilt, shame, and self-hatred. He may have experienced a momentary elation at “scoring one for the good guys,” then been horrified that he celebrated killing a human being. He may view himself as a monster for having those emotions, or for having gotten used to killing because it happened often. I can personally recommend 'On Killing' by Dave Grossman.

6. He’s had to cultivate explosive anger in order to survive in combat.

7. He may have been only nineteen when he first had to make a life and death decision for someone else. What kind of skills does a nineteen-year-old have to deal with that kind of responsibility? One of my veterans put it this way: “You want to know what frightening is? It’s a nineteen-year-old boy who’s had a sip of that power over life and death that war gives you. It’s a boy who, despite all the things he’s been taught, knows that he likes it. It’s a nineteen-year-old who’s just lost a friend, and is angry and scared, and determined that some *%#& is gonna pay. To this day, the thought of that boy can wake me from a sound sleep and leave me staring at the ceiling.”

8. He may believe that he’s the only one who feels this way; eventually he may realize that at least other combat vets understand. On some level, he doesn't want you to understand, because that would mean you had shared his most horrible experience, and he wants someone to remain innocent.

9. He doesn't understand that you have a mama bear inside of you, and that probably any of us could kill in defense of someone if we needed to. Imagine your reaction if someone pointed a weapon at your child. Would it change your reaction if a child pointed a weapon at your child?

10. When you don’t understand, he needs you to give him the benefit of the doubt. He needs you also to realize that his issues really aren’t about you, although you may step in them sometimes. Truly, the last thing he wants is for you to become a casualty of his war.
The Battle Buddy Foundation was Founded by Veterans to Serve Veterans, and exists to serve our veterans suffering the 'invisible wounds' of war, Post Traumatic Stress, and Traumatic Brain Injury by providing PTS Service Dogs, Education and Awareness programs and supporting our nation's heroes when they need it most!!!

With the Veteran Suicide rate at 22 EVERY DAY, and
the fact that MORE VETERANS HAVE TAKEN THEIR OWN LIVES AFTER RETURNING HOME FROM IRAQ AND AFGHAN, THAN HAVE DIED DURING COMBAT IN BOTH WARS COMBINED --There has never been more of a reason to TAKE ACTION!
*Your donation will directly support the training and placement of a PTSD Service Dog with a veteran who needs it.*
The Battle Buddy Foundation is registered with the Ohio Sec. Of State and our 501(c)3 status is pending.

Donations can be made online here:
Donate - Kennys Battle Buddy

Donations can be mailed to:
The Battle Buddy Foundation
8859 Cincinnati-Dayton Rd Suite 202
West Chester, Oh 45069

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Good read.

 

[metaldog]

Profound! Thanks for posting.

 

[cedartop]

kidd, you probably have the numbers, but it should be pointed out that the majority of the armed forces are not Combat Arms. Maybe it is because I was in the Infantry, but it always annoys me slightly when people think everyone in the military does or sees the same things.

I would be interested in seeing some real stats on those suicide numbers. If true, that is astounding and not in a good way.

 

[rvb]

kidd, you probably have the numbers, but it should be pointed out that the majority of the armed forces are not Combat Arms. Maybe it is because I was in the Infantry, but it always annoys me slightly when people think everyone in the military does or sees the same things.

I would be interested in seeing some real stats on those suicide numbers. If true, that is astounding and not in a good way.

while suicide rates may be higher among those who saw combat, I don't think they are the only ones who find reason to be depressed/lost when they return. Some come back to find jobs gone, spouces cheating, debt, etc. Being gone for a long time is hard and causes many hardships, even if the only combat they ever saw was a brawl among shipmates in the mess hall while floating around hundreds of miles off shore, and hundreds of miles from the war .....

-rvb

 

[the1kidd03]

kidd, you probably have the numbers, but it should be pointed out that the majority of the armed forces are not Combat Arms. Maybe it is because I was in the Infantry, but it always annoys me slightly when people think everyone in the military does or sees the same things.

I would be interested in seeing some real stats on those suicide numbers. If true, that is astounding and not in a good way.

"My cousin Jimmy is in the Army, do you know him?"

I couldn't quote to you the exact numbers currently. It is incredibly high and it was (and increasingly so) when I was still active. It was always referenced as one of the lead "non-combat killers" of service members. That and motorcycles. I don't know if it's actually THAT high or not, but I don't know that I would doubt it either.

Yeah, I think we all see the association people inherently make with service members (regardless of MOS) and various things, such as being an "expert" in all things gun/defense related. Of course, they are not always true (if ever.) I just consider it to be an ineffective stereotype people often fall into. We naturally stereotype information for a variety of reasons and people's lack of knowledge of the military, how it works, operates, etc. will only fuel ineffective stereotyping. I specifically make examples of this in my introductory class for the "anti-gun" crowd for a variety of reasons.

Just like anything else, there aspects which can be learned from a combat arms MOS (just as anyone of any other experience demographic.) That doesn't make them an expert in all things pertaining to a topic however like many assume. I believe the culture within the military somewhat fuels this within itself where they focus heavily on lessons learned from guys that have been there, done that. It sets in stone the subconscious belief that experience is king and all else is inferior. It's a sort of conditioning that takes place psychologically while being indoctrinated into military culture which promotes good order to their authoritarian hierarchy. It has its downfalls as well as benefits to it, like anything else.

I actually know a kid (my age, lol, I still consider a kid) who was diagnosed/treated for PTSD and was not a combat arms MOS. Now, I don't know the specifics of his service, what happened, etc.... but HOW he got such a diagnosis just doesn't seem to be possible to me (enlisted, non combat arms MOS, Air Force)

In general, I think we have, to some degree, created a culture which idolizes military/combat service while on some level, at the same time not psychologically preparing youths for the hardships of real life (such as found in combat.) This can make one emotionally "weak" (prone to psychological hardship) when put into situations that might conflict with personal moral beliefs that are often so deeply rooted at an early age. So, when a young man goes off to combat in such an early age and with such a strong moral foundation, it is bound to cause emotional issues within them. It will only be increased upon returning home and feeling as though they have nobody which can relate to their experience to talk about it with.

 

[the1kidd03]

while suicide rates may be higher among those who saw combat, I don't think they are the only ones who find reason to be depressed/lost when they return. Some come back to find jobs gone, spouces cheating, debt, etc. Being gone for a long time is hard and causes many hardships, even if the only combat they ever saw was a brawl among shipmates in the mess hall while floating around hundreds of miles off shore, and hundreds of miles from the war .....

-rvb

Yeah, I would definitely be interested to see the demographic analysis of PTSD deaths in the military to see if there is an association between MOS or not. It is a difficult transition for some to make (both in or out of the military.) I can see where there might be some family separation issues and so forth to help degrade some personality types emotional stability, but I don't know that there is any hard evidence/research to support the notion at this time. I think that is one aspect of PTSD which largely goes unconsidered in research. I would like to eventually research PTSD more in depth myself, but for the time being I'm more interested in other aspects than strictly military application.

 

[rvb]

Yeah, I would definitely be interested to see the demographic analysis of PTSD deaths in the military to see if there is an association between MOS or not. It is a difficult transition for some to make (both in or out of the military.) I can see where there might be some family separation issues and so forth to help degrade some personality types emotional stability, but I don't know that there is any hard evidence/research to support the notion at this time. I think that is one aspect of PTSD which largely goes unconsidered in research. I would like to eventually research PTSD more in depth myself, but for the time being I'm more interested in other aspects than strictly military application.

I wasn't trying to say most of those suicides by non-combat vets are PTSD, just a result of the depression that comes from separation from loved ones, divorce, financial issues, etc... iow the same issues that non-mil people take their lives over, however the mil/deployed life causes a higher than normal rate of its population to suffer these problems.

It's certainly not a new problem, just the decade+ of mid east wars has seen a higher/longer deployment rate of troops, so it seems reasonable the suicide rate would also increase. PTSD is just another burdon to shoulder for the combat vet on TOP of the issues any deployed mil person faces...

civ here, so officially talking out the "bomb bay." but anyone w/ friends/family overseas needs to be aware of these issues and be ready to help where possible.

-rvb

 

[the1kidd03]

I wasn't trying to say most of those suicides by non-combat vets are PTSD, just a result of the depression that comes from separation from loved ones, divorce, financial issues, etc... iow the same issues that non-mil people take their lives over, however the mil/deployed life causes a higher than normal rate of its population to suffer these problems.

It's certainly not a new problem, just the decade+ of mid east wars has seen a higher/longer deployment rate of troops, so it seems reasonable the suicide rate would also increase. PTSD is just another burdon to shoulder for the combat vet on TOP of the issues any deployed mil person faces...

civ here, so officially talking out the "bomb bay." but anyone w/ friends/family overseas needs to be aware of these issues and be ready to help where possible.

-rvb

True. You just made me think of an interesting aspect that I hadn't previously considered is all. I'm sure the majority are in some a combat arms MOS, but it would be interesting to see the real numbers.

 

[45fan]

kidd, you probably have the numbers, but it should be pointed out that the majority of the armed forces are not Combat Arms. Maybe it is because I was in the Infantry, but it always annoys me slightly when people think everyone in the military does or sees the same things.

I would be interested in seeing some real stats on those suicide numbers. If true, that is astounding and not in a good way.

Just because an MOS isnt considered "combat arms" does not mean they never see combat. A fine example would be a corpsman. Some of them never see anything but the inside of an exam room, while others shoot and move with the tip of the spear operators. I was fortunate in the fact that I was not an 03-- whatever in my time, but because of my unit mission, I was quite often in the mix with the infantry. I have no idea on how the Army or other branches disperse their resources, but its fairly well understood that as a Marine, you are a rifleman first, no matter sex, race, MOS or sexual orientation (new corps)..

 

[cedartop]

Just because an MOS isnt considered "combat arms" does not mean they never see combat. A fine example would be a corpsman. Some of them never see anything but the inside of an exam room, while others shoot and move with the tip of the spear operators. I was fortunate in the fact that I was not an 03-- whatever in my time, but because of my unit mission, I was quite often in the mix with the infantry. I have no idea on how the Army or other branches disperse their resources, but its fairly well understood that as a Marine, you are a rifleman first, no matter sex, race, MOS or sexual orientation (new corps)..

You and Ryan are right of course. I didn't explain myself well enough but I think Kidd got what I was saying. No disrespect intended towards REMFS. In truth many of the guys I was in the Infantry with were only there because they couldn't score high enough to get other jobs.

 

[the1kidd03]

In truth many of the guys I was in the Infantry with were only there because they couldn't score high enough to get other jobs.

Another sad aspect of the military process. The lowest scoring goes to the gruntwork.

Although, I met several guys like myself who were older, prior service, highly educated/experienced, etc. that wanted to do infantry. I knew several guys with a variety of degrees (went in enlisted, for infantry no matter how hard senior leadership tried to get us to go to the dark side.) One was a competitive body builder. I met several guys who left the navy as E5s or higher only to start over again in the Corps at E2. One guy I met at SOI was incredibly intelligent and enlisted in the infantry with aspirations to complete the training for MARSOC. He was a major "bookworm" kind of guy who very much resembled the Millhouse character from Simpsons, LOL. Infantry was all he wanted though.

 

[iChokePeople]

I actually know a kid (my age, lol, I still consider a kid) who was diagnosed/treated for PTSD and was not a combat arms MOS. Now, I don't know the specifics of his service, what happened, etc.... but HOW he got such a diagnosis just doesn't seem to be possible to me (enlisted, non combat arms MOS, Air Force)

Oh, PTSD is common in the Air Force. Sometimes they plan poorly and have to serve RED wine with fish in the dining facilities, or run out of dessert.

 

[Booya]

Good read!

kidd, you probably have the numbers, but it should be pointed out that the majority of the armed forces are not Combat Arms. Maybe it is because I was in the Infantry, but it always annoys me slightly when people think everyone in the military does or sees the same things.

"My cousin Jimmy is in the Army, do you know him?"

I couldn't quote to you the exact numbers currently. It is incredibly high and it was (and increasingly so) when I was still active. It was always referenced as one of the lead "non-combat killers" of service members. That and motorcycles. I don't know if it's actually THAT high or not, but I don't know that I would doubt it either.

Yeah, I think we all see the association people inherently make with service members (regardless of MOS) and various things, such as being an "expert" in all things gun/defense related. Of course, they are not always true (if ever.) I just consider it to be an ineffective stereotype people often fall into. We naturally stereotype information for a variety of reasons and people's lack of knowledge of the military, how it works, operates, etc. will only fuel ineffective stereotyping. I specifically make examples of this in my introductory class for the "anti-gun" crowd for a variety of reasons.

Just like anything else, there aspects which can be learned from a combat arms MOS (just as anyone of any other experience demographic.) That doesn't make them an expert in all things pertaining to a topic however like many assume. I believe the culture within the military somewhat fuels this within itself where they focus heavily on lessons learned from guys that have been there, done that. It sets in stone the subconscious belief that experience is king and all else is inferior. It's a sort of conditioning that takes place psychologically while being indoctrinated into military culture which promotes good order to their authoritarian hierarchy. It has its downfalls as well as benefits to it, like anything else.

I actually know a kid (my age, lol, I still consider a kid) who was diagnosed/treated for PTSD and was not a combat arms MOS. Now, I don't know the specifics of his service, what happened, etc.... but HOW he got such a diagnosis just doesn't seem to be possible to me (enlisted, non combat arms MOS, Air Force)

In general, I think we have, to some degree, created a culture which idolizes military/combat service while on some level, at the same time not psychologically preparing youths for the hardships of real life (such as found in combat.) This can make one emotionally "weak" (prone to psychological hardship) when put into situations that might conflict with personal moral beliefs that are often so deeply rooted at an early age. So, when a young man goes off to combat in such an early age and with such a strong moral foundation, it is bound to cause emotional issues within them. It will only be increased upon returning home and feeling as though they have nobody which can relate to their experience to talk about it with.

Keep in mind guys, (I know you know this, but it has yet to be stated) these days and SIGNIFICANTLY more so from 2003-2006, not all combat was conducted by combat-arms MOS'. In 2003, once you crossed the LOD you were eligible for and likely to find some contact at some point. This is obviously not the norm, but as an example, I know a supply guy and a MIMMS clerk (0411 in the Corps (admin type)) that both have purple hearts and have seen more combat then many grunts. I know a lot of guys like that actually. Hell, back in those years 99% of the convoy security and almost all your provisional rifle companies were non combat arms MOS' and they all got some! In the battles of the last 10 years the line line has been so blurred that the who's better: Grunt - POG argument is no different than the USMC - Army argument. All credit where it's due to combat arms MOS' (I'm not although I have filled combat arms billets more then once), but just keep in mind some of these hard dogs admin types have engaged in and seen some just as much combat as the next 0311. I work with a lot of these guys now in my current USMC job and I've seen and heard things that would surprise you with regards to this very topic! Just food for thought. (P.S. No I'm not admin... freaking POG's ).

**Edit - 45fan - I somehow completely missed your post and you did state pretty much what I'm saying.

 

[the1kidd03]

Good read!






Keep in mind guys, (I know you know this, but it has yet to be stated) these days and SIGNIFICANTLY more so from 2003-2006, not all combat was conducted by combat-arms MOS'. In 2003, once you crossed the LOD you were eligible for and likely to find some contact at some point. This is obviously not the norm, but as an example, I know a supply guy and a MIMMS clerk (0411 in the Corps (admin type)) that both have purple hearts and have seen more combat then many grunts. I know a lot of guys like that actually. Hell, back in those years 99% of the convoy security and almost all your provisional rifle companies were non combat arms MOS' and they all got some! In the battles of the last 10 years the line line has been so blurred that the who's better: Grunt - POG argument is no different than the USMC - Army argument. All credit where it's due to combat arms MOS' (I'm not although I have filled combat arms billets more then once), but just keep in mind some of these hard dogs admin types have engaged in and seen some just as much combat as the next 0311. I work with a lot of these guys now in my current USMC job and I've seen and heard things that would surprise you with regards to this very topic! Just food for thought. (P.S. No I'm not admin... freaking POG's ).

**Edit - 45fan - I somehow completely missed your post and you did state pretty much what I'm saying.

I've known numerous of the same too. I'm just curious if there are any noticeable differences in the numbers based on MOS. Just like anything with statistics, it wouldn't be completely telling of anything, but it can provide an avenue of thought you may not have considered possible previously (just as you're pointing out.)

 

[the1kidd03]

Oh, PTSD is common in the Air Force. Sometimes they plan poorly and have to serve RED wine with fish in the dining facilities, or run out of dessert.

 

[45fan]

You and Ryan are right of course. I didn't explain myself well enough but I think Kidd got what I was saying. No disrespect intended towards REMFS. In truth many of the guys I was in the Infantry with were only there because they couldn't score high enough to get other jobs.

To be completely fair, most of the infantry guys I knew were pretty intelligent, competent people. If memory serves me correctly, its the box kickers that got stuck with the low end of the ASVAB spectrum. Just entirely too much math and other critical thought processes in the 03' field to drop a dummy into and expect him to not get himself and others killed.

 

[iChokePeople]

If you think infantrymen are dumb, you never spent time around artillerymen.

 

[the1kidd03]

If you think infantrymen are dumb, you never spent time around artillerymen.

That I have not...lol

 

[Disposable Heart]

Think this should be a good read for police: They routinely run afoul of vets and maybe are vets themselves. The proportional response thing really speaks to me: My dad was a vet and I saw that. If you pushed, he pushed back with equivalent or more. So if you talked with him about something you were mad about, do it calmly and they return it calmly. You begin yelling, the revert and QUICK.