Max's power outage 101 "equipment test" thread.

[maxwelhse]

I've been posting some of this in the OSUT thread, but it would probably be more useful here. Power went down about 24 hours ago and I've been pushed into putting some of my arrangements in motion. Some are working better than others.

So... Here's what the plan/equipment is/was vs. how it's actually working out. This setup isn't intended for survival, but more for comfort and ease of use to get over smaller hurdles (less than a day).

Battery only power setup:
-Ryobi 18V 150w inverter to run "whatever"
-APC UPS BX1500M, 900w UPS to run laptops and such
-CyberPower ST625U 325w UPS to run the wifi and internet
-2 or 3 laptops that are normally fully charged with decent batteries
-2 USB power bricks for phone charging. One is small, the other is a car jump starter pack.

So... Last night this was working pretty much awesome and exactly as I'd hoped, except the CyberPower UPS didn't last nearly as long as I thought it would. It died after about 2 hours. Put the Ryobi Inverter on the internet stuff and everything was fine again. APC UPS ran the laptop for about 4-5 hours and then pooped out too. Turns out second laptop was powered up when the power shutdown and I didn't know it, so it was also dead. Switched to the phone from that point forward.

Finally got some sleep. Woke up and the phone was still at 100% charge after watching hours of YouTube videos, but both power bricks were dead. All Ryobi batteries, both UPSes, and all laptops were all dead too.

The plan here was to dig the generator out and recharge everything while the freezer and fridges were coming back to temp. This is when things began to fall apart...

6 bay Ryobi charger either doesn't like the generator or just decided today was it's day to die. Refuses to charge batteries and gives weird light status. Dropped back to 2 single bay chargers to do the job. Things progressing normally there.

Neither UPS seems to want to charge off of the generator. This could be because I let them drop to literally 0% power and damages them somehow, they could be defective (one of them is only about a month old), or they just don't like the genny. Either way, that plan is dead.

Hardwired internet seems to now be down, but tethering my phone to my laptop and the laptop charging the phone (and the laptop being charged from the generator) seems to be working).

So... All in all, about half of my luxury battery power system seems to have worked as intended. Overall everything is fine, but what I'm now calling v1.0 looks like it's really only good for about 4 hours before I'd better get the generator cranked off. Once the power comes back up I'll explore the issues with the UPS units and update the thread accordingly. It's been a good trial run in less than desperate conditions to see what would happen and I've already ordered a bunch of stuff to progress toward v2.0.

 

[gunworks321]

We may or may not experience a solar CME over the next few days, so you may get an opportunity to test everything again. Hopefully everything will be charged back up again. I have similar back up systems in place with the exception of the genset. I could run extension from the RV in the driveway, but that will only power frig and freezer and a few lights plus a little extra juice for TV. Cooking, hot water and heating is all gas, so no worries there. I keep thinking of Generac with transfer switch, but wife 1.0 is resistant. Maybe when we go a couple days without after a big storm she will change her mind. Let us know what you upgrade.

 

[ditcherman]

Sorry not familiar with your other thread, am I correct in assuming the generator you speak of is not 'clean' power?
I have some mildly weird stuff happen when our power goes out and I'm running off a Bobcat welder, little honda suitcase runs things clean.

 

[maxwelhse]

We may or may not experience a solar CME over the next few days, so you may get an opportunity to test everything again. Hopefully everything will be charged back up again. I have similar back up systems in place with the exception of the genset. I could run extension from the RV in the driveway, but that will only power frig and freezer and a few lights plus a little extra juice for TV. Cooking, hot water and heating is all gas, so no worries there. I keep thinking of Generac with transfer switch, but wife 1.0 is resistant. Maybe when we go a couple days without after a big storm she will change her mind. Let us know what you upgrade.

Wife 1.0...

Some upgrades are already in process. I ordered 2 9ah Ryobi batteries last night which should run the internet and laptop for a great many hours (plus my string trimmer and chainsaw for a long, long time) as well as some adapters so I can use my Milwaukee M18 batteries in the Ryobi inverter. I think I'll have 150w of somewhat dirty inverter power available to me for several hours with that setup.

I also ordered a 500w pure sign wave inverter that I can run off of the vehicles so I don't have to have an insanely loud genny running to charge a "this or that". Either winter or summer, sitting the car with HVAC while a thing charges sounds fine to me.

and... I'm about to order replacement batteries for another UPS that I snagged from the dumpster a few months back. It's a big boy that might actually run my fridge or freezer for a short period of time.

Ordered lots of other little trinkets too. More candle lanterns. More heat sources, etc.

Sorry not familiar with your other thread, am I correct in assuming the generator you speak of is not 'clean' power?
I have some mildly weird stuff happen when our power goes out and I'm running off a Bobcat welder, little honda suitcase runs things clean.

Correct. It's just an old school Coleman that makes whatever it makes and whatever RPM of the moment. No inverter on it or anything. Today's its running pretty well, but it could use some carb work (in fact, I have a complete replacement carb waiting to go on it). This summer I may just start sniffing around for something a bit larger. It's a 5500w and a 7500w would sure be nice. It would be cool to find something with 12dc output too so I can run a small external inverter directly off of it for sensitive stuff.

The previous plan was to run the sensitive stuff off of the UPS backups, which are pure sign wave, and let the dirty generator charge them up. But... that plan didn't go as expected for reasons as of yet unknown.

 

[ditcherman]

Wife 1.0...

Some upgrades are already in process. I ordered 2 9ah Ryobi batteries last night which should run the internet and laptop for a great many hours (plus my string trimmer and chainsaw for a long, long time) as well as some adapters so I can use my Milwaukee M18 batteries in the Ryobi inverter. I think I'll have 150w of somewhat dirty inverter power available to me for several hours with that setup.

I also ordered a 500w pure sign wave inverter that I can run off of the vehicles so I don't have to have an insanely loud genny running to charge a "this or that". Either winter or summer, sitting the car with HVAC while a thing charges sounds fine to me.

and... I'm about to order replacement batteries for another UPS that I snagged from the dumpster a few months back. It's a big boy that might actually run my fridge or freezer for a short period of time.

Ordered lots of other little trinkets too. More candle lanterns. More heat sources, etc.



Correct. It's just an old school Coleman that makes whatever it makes and whatever RPM of the moment. No inverter on it or anything. Today's its running pretty well, but it could use some carb work (in fact, I have a complete replacement carb waiting to go on it). This summer I may just start sniffing around for something a bit larger. It's a 5500w and a 7500w would sure be nice. It would be cool to find something with 12dc output too so I can run a small external inverter directly off of it for sensitive stuff.

The previous plan was to run the sensitive stuff off of the UPS backups, which are pure sign wave, and let the dirty generator charge them up. But... that plan didn't go as expected for reasons as of yet unknown.

All I can add is that my Bobcat welder sucks down about 15 gallons of gas per 24 hours (ran 3 days straight once) and sure makes REMC look cheap. Bobcat will never idle down. It'd be interesting to see how much gas your car would take in 24 hours. If your only needing a 500w inverter I would highly recommend the honda suitcases, less than 100db IIRC, and fairly clean.

 

[maxwelhse]

All I can add is that my Bobcat welder sucks down about 15 gallons of gas per 24 hours (ran 3 days straight once) and sure makes REMC look cheap. Bobcat will never idle down. It'd be interesting to see how much gas your car would take in 24 hours. If your only needing a 500w inverter I would highly recommend the honda suitcases, less than 100db IIRC, and fairly clean.

My generator is the same way, but less hungry. It's all the RPM, all the time. No idle solenoid. It seems to burn about a quart of gas an hour though, which is pretty crazy good IMO. A full 5 gallon tank should run it for 24 hours.

The intention of the small inverter running off of the car wouldn't be to power anything for all that long. Maybe an hour or so in a shot to charge laptops/phones/batters plus warm up/cool down the peoples. The thing was only $60 so I couldn't refuse it.

 

[maxwelhse]

Now that the fridges and freezer aren't running non-stop, I just tossed a 1500w space heater at the genny too. She knows its there, but no real hiccups.

 

[jsx1043]

For the newbs, can someone hit on the basics of backup power?

i.e.: Clean and dirty? (Assuming gas-powered vs. battery bank?)

I have a little generator and my own set up for mobility like battery packs and solar panels, but I’m not running the whole house on either.

 

[smokingman]

For the newbs, can someone hit on the basics of backup power?

i.e.: Clean and dirty? (Assuming gas-powered vs. battery bank?)

I have a little generator and my own set up for mobility like battery packs and solar panels, but I’m not running the whole house on either.

Pure Sine Wave vs. Modified Sine Wave Inverters- What's the Difference?

Click here to learn the difference between a pure sine wave and a modified sine wave inverters. altE Store - Making renewable do-able since 1999.

www.altestore.com

A pure sine wave is clean power. A modified sine wave is dirty and will not run many electronics.

 

[maxwelhse]

Clean vs. dirty is about the shape and consistency of the sine wave your power generation equipment makes. If it's a funky shape (like stair steps) instead of a nice slope, that's "dirty" power and generally isn't good for your equipment. Some stuff will tolerate it, some stuff won't.

In a perfect world, in the US anyhow, you should have 60Hz power frequency. So, the power reversing poles 60 times a second, nice and smooth like. If your generator isn't running at the right speed, or is running inconsistent speeds, you can get something other than that, which isn't great.

You will usually hear the clean vs. dirty stuff when talking about power inverters since they use electronic switching to turn 12DC (usually) into 120V A/C. A pure sine wave inverter is supposed to do exactly what it says it does: generate pure 60Hz A/C sign waves.

Did I help anything?

 

[jsx1043]

Did I help anything?

LOL (I’m like Allan from The Hangover over here...I’m trying to read all the calculus floating around me at the moment)

Yes and no... that’s a great explanation for the layman like me so that helps tremendously. The “no” part comes in how to apply/implement it in building a system. How would one go about testing their devices?

 

[maxwelhse]

LOL (I’m like Allan from The Hangover over here...I’m trying to read all the calculus floating around me at the moment)

Yes and no... that’s a great explanation for the layman like me so that helps tremendously. The “no” part comes in how to apply/implement it in building a system. How would one go about testing their devices?

Best bet is to put anything you think is sensitive on an inverter of some sort (PC, TV, etc) and then cross your fingers that your generator is running well enough that it won't fry your bigger stuff like your fridges.

That's pretty much where I'm at.

Testing it...? Go Amish for a day or two!

 

[jsx1043]

Apologies, I meant testing your power generation source and seeing what wave it’s running and to see if it’ll pushing clean or dirty. If there’s an applicable tester from the hardware store or similar...

 

[maxwelhse]

Looks like I need to build some "dumb" and heavy duty outlet strip/boxes. A couple of my strips have overloaded themselves today and faulted out. I didn't notice until who knows how long after the fact so its hard to say how long the refers were all "unplugged".

Apologies, I meant testing your power generation source and seeing what wave it’s running and to see if it’ll pushing clean or dirty. If there’s an applicable tester from the hardware store or similar...

An oscilloscope is what you'd need to perform measurements. Usually stuff will be clearly advertised as what it is and you'll also usually pay quite a bit more for the pure sine wave stuff.

FWIW, only my PC UPS backups are pure sine wave and they've both been down all day today. I haven't worried about running everything directly plugged into the generator (in part, because these are laptops... they're somewhat insulated by their own power transformers).

 

[smokingman]

LOL (I’m like Allan from The Hangover over here...I’m trying to read all the calculus floating around me at the moment)

Yes and no... that’s a great explanation for the layman like me so that helps tremendously. The “no” part comes in how to apply/implement it in building a system. How would one go about testing their devices?

Without an oscilloscope apparently, your microwave oven is a good testing method.

 

[maxwelhse]

Without an oscilloscope apparently, your microwave oven is a good testing method.

Reasonably good way to roach a modern microwave too.

On my stuff, I can actually hear a "dirty" inverter if I just plug a regular old fan into it. You can hear the stepping in the fan and it will sort of buzz.

 

[woowoo2]

Instead of trying to clean up dirty power with a UPS, take a good hard look at the inverting gensets on the market.
My little Champion 2000 watt unit will run all day on a gallon of gas.

 

[maxwelhse]

Instead of trying to clean up dirty power with a UPS, take a good hard look at the inverting gensets on the market.
My little Champion 2000 watt unit will run all day on a gallon of gas.

Not really trying to clean the dirty power with a UPS. Just trying to recharge the UPSes off of the generator... I think in principal it works, but it just takes way too long to bring them back up for what you get out of them.

I eventually would like to get something like your Champion on further down the line. I'm finding bigger holes for the money at the moment... or at least I've spent plenty since the lights went out.

 

[churchmouse]

Instead of trying to clean up dirty power with a UPS, take a good hard look at the inverting gensets on the market.
My little Champion 2000 watt unit will run all day on a gallon of gas.

We recently sold the big noisy thirsty gen sets and opted into 3 inverted power units. No where near as big as the monsters we had but they are stingy drinkers and if you watch the loads you can get through.

 

[IndyTim]

When we say dirty/clean power, are we talking about THD?
We have a portable generator that produces less than 1.2% THD at full load.
Is this considered clean power?
I’d rather not brick our electronics-laden refrigerator if I can help it.