Leaked/breaking:Roe v. Wade expected to be overturned

[chipbennett]

This is an easy one. The Bible tells us in no uncertain terms when life begins. In Genesis, chapter one, God answers that question himself. He forms a figure from the Earth, but it does not become Adam ("man" in Hebrew) until God "breathes into him the breath of life, and he became man.”

Clearly, life begins when you draw your first breath. That is when God places your soul in your body. Your soul enters your body with your first breath and it leaves with your last. The body is just a vessel — your being, your humanity, is your immortal soul. That's what the Bible says, and for the life of me I cannot understand why so many people, especially supposedly religious people, get this wrong. There is no question, no moral ambiguity.

I am so sick of this sophistry. God created Adam from the dust of the earth. He created a human being from inanimate material. Dust is not living, and was not living until God formed it into Adam, and breathed life into him. So, I'll grant you: for all human beings that begin life as the dust of the earth, their life begins when God breathes life into them. For all other humans, that scenario doesn't apply.

Abortion destroys an empty vessel, it does not kill a human being.

If you truly believe that the life in the womb is an "empty vessel", I weep for you. You clearly have not been blessed to experience the wondrous interaction between the mother (especially, but also the father) with that life in the womb. If you want the entire, crazy world to make sense, I hope you get the chance to experience that - to realize that your unborn child recognizes your voice - even your very presence - and responds to it.

 

[chipbennett]

Such a law, done for religious reasons, would be unconstitutional.

Which is why, until a few years ago, it was illegal to purchase alcohol on Sunday in Indiana (and why, even today, alcohol can only be purchased after noon on Sunday), because Indiana's clearly religion-based Blue Laws were unconstitutional?

(I think you know where I stand on such laws...)

 

[KLB]

They should craft a law based on human rights, desires of Hoosiers be darned.

Something that no clear group consensus can be made on?

You best hope that this isn't even of an issue to flip things in this state. I don't believe there are a majority in this state that support a full ban.

 

[HoosierLife]

My Mom used to say "this hurts me more than it hurts you", when she had to spank me. I didn't realize, until I had my own kids, how accurate that statement was.
I hated spanking my kids. I often got into arguments about it from those who don't believe in "spare the rod, spoil the child".
This is what I would say to them::
If your child runs into the street without looking for cars, do you spank them or give them a "timeout"? I would spank my kids anytime they put themselves or others in danger. I wanted to make sure that action was associated with pain, so they would likely never do it again.
Putting a kid in timeout to "think about it"? Good luck with that. I'd rather have my kid still living with the "terrible scars" from a spanking when they crossed a street without looking, than DEAD.

Life hack I learned from a couple at church with 5 boys.

They called spankings timeouts.

I adopted that language too.

I sound like a pansy beta male in public threatening my kids with timeouts, but don’t have to worry about any Karen’s calling someone on us.

 

[HoosierLife]

As a believer, it is not my judgement that matters

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

A sobering reminder for sure. Though I do think this verse is for Believers and has to do with their rewards or lack thereof for eternity based on what they did while alive.

The lost will kneel before the Great White Throne Judgment.

I’d make sure you don’t end up at that judgment.

It doesn’t end well.

 

[HoosierLife]

Lol.
What does the book of morals say?

Here i'll help,

This is an easy one. The Bible tells us in no uncertain terms when life begins. In Genesis, chapter one, God answers that question himself. He forms a figure from the Earth, but it does not become Adam ("man" in Hebrew) until God "breathes into him the breath of life, and he became man.”

Clearly, life begins when you draw your first breath. That is when God places your soul in your body. Your soul enters your body with your first breath and it leaves with your last. The body is just a vessel — your being, your humanity, is your immortal soul. That's what the Bible says, and for the life of me I cannot understand why so many people, especially supposedly religious people, get this wrong. There is no question, no moral ambiguity. Abortion destroys an empty vessel, it does not kill a human being.

I’ve heard that argument in the last few years.

That means you believe that these babies aren’t really humans until they take their first breath??

In the words of our illustrious President, come on man!

Adam and Eve were never in the womb.

To take the first creation of man, out of context, to apply to a topic that is about 20 levels deep on the depravity scale AND folks are basing that off a Book they don’t believe in the first place, is disingenuous at best.

Almost every culture since the beginning of time considered it a homicide to kill a child in the womb.

This is why folks come up with crazy arguments on simple subjects like this, but when you throw out objective truths, then any argument is a free for all.

Look, there has to be Someone or Something that is Eternal for anything to exist.

Doesn’t matter how far back you go, there has to be Someone or Something that is Self-Existent.

Cause and Effect.

That’s literally the name the Lord gave to Moses. I AM THAT I AM.

I AM THE SELF EXISTENT ONE. -God

Ok, so you can believe that or not, that’s your choice.

But all objective truth comes from the Self Existent One.

If not, then eat, drink, be merry, and murder your children, for tomorrow we die.

All truth would be subjective based on your feelings and subjective interpretation of the data without an Objective Standard.

That’s where most exist today.

I mean we argue things by logic, Scripture, science, evidence, complicated philosophies etc.

But they’re all based on some objective truth.

Sawing off the limb of objective truth, based on the Word of God that they’re standing on, to make the arguments they do.

It’s craziness. But it is what it is.

Personally, I think if you don’t believe in objective truth, your opinion on any matter is just that, an opinion.

All that to say, God clearly condemns murder, has judgment for causing a miscarriage in the law, we had value and God knew who we were BEFORE we were in our mother’s womb.

He had a plan for us and our lives.

To destroy that life at any point after conception is a heinous act against the Creator.

That is the bottom line.

People today are “without natural affection” and their hearts are hardened and consciences seared that they won’t even hear the truth.

I mean I cannot even believe we have to have this conversation.

Don’t murder your children. It’s wrong!

 

[Creedmoor]

I am so sick of this sophistry. God created Adam from the dust of the earth. He created a human being from inanimate material. Dust is not living, and was not living until God formed it into Adam, and breathed life into him. So, I'll grant you: for all human beings that begin life as the dust of the earth, their life begins when God breathes life into them. For all other humans, that scenario doesn't apply.


If you truly believe that the life in the womb is an "empty vessel", I weep for you. You clearly have not been blessed to experience the wondrous interaction between the mother (especially, but also the father) with that life in the womb. If you want the entire, crazy world to make sense, I hope you get the chance to experience that - to realize that your unborn child recognizes your voice - even your very presence - and responds to it.

I stopped reading with the first sentence,
My fallacious arguments. lol
You just dont seem to get that,
I dont need a book of your morals & indoctrination. I had enought as a child/young adult.
Your belief's are yours. Im entitled to mine.

You want to be less 'sick'
Feel free to place me in your ignore box,
And thats to anyone here.

Chip, Good Day.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Something that no clear group consensus can be made on?

You best hope that this isn't even of an issue to flip things in this state. I don't believe there are a majority in this state that support a full ban.

Rights don't come from group consensus, thank God.

Imagine where we would be on some of our other rights if we took this approach of, oh, the majority don't support fully recognizing this or that right, so we shouldn't ask our legislators to enact laws that recognize it, either.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Cold feet?
I thought today was the day. After 50 years, this should be locked and loaded ready to roll. What happened?

Indiana lawmakers push back special session for abortion, direct payments

Indiana lawmakers pushed back their special session to address abortion laws and direct payments to taxpayers, Republicans announced

fox59.com

Why? If a dam is built, do you need to prepare for flooding downstream? No. Because the dam is there and holds back the water so you dont NEED flood control plans. Unless you fear the dam is going to break (or be dismantled) there is no sane reason to waste time on individual flood control measures.

So in reality they havent had 50 years. Only 2 or 3 months. (or however far back it was leaked) Maybe a year if you consider when the MS suit was granted cert.

Yes some states have trigger laws. I consider those states crazy zealots.

 

[Creedmoor]

I’ve heard that argument in the last few years.

That means you believe that these babies aren’t really humans until they take their first breath??

In the words of our illustrious President, come on man!

Adam and Eve were never in the womb.

To take the first creation of man, out of context, to apply to a topic that is about 20 levels deep on the depravity scale AND folks are basing that off a Book they don’t believe in the first place, is disingenuous at best.

Almost every culture since the beginning of time considered it a homicide to kill a child in the womb.

This is why folks come up with crazy arguments on simple subjects like this, but when you throw out objective truths, then any argument is a free for all.

Look, there has to be Someone or Something that is Eternal for anything to exist.

Doesn’t matter how far back you go, there has to be Someone or Something that is Self-Existent.

Cause and Effect.

That’s literally the name the Lord gave to Moses. I AM THAT I AM.

I AM THE SELF EXISTENT ONE. -God

Ok, so you can believe that or not, that’s your choice.

But all objective truth comes from the Self Existent One.

If not, then eat, drink, be merry, and murder your children, for tomorrow we die.

All truth would be subjective based on your feelings and subjective interpretation of the data without an Objective Standard.

That’s where most exist today.

I mean we argue things by logic, Scripture, science, evidence, complicated philosophies etc.

But they’re all based on some objective truth.

Sawing off the limb of objective truth, based on the Word of God that they’re standing on, to make the arguments they do.

It’s craziness. But it is what it is.

Personally, I think if you don’t believe in objective truth, your opinion on any matter is just that, an opinion.

All that to say, God clearly condemns murder, has judgment for causing a miscarriage in the law, we had value and God knew who we were BEFORE we were in our mother’s womb.

He had a plan for us and our lives.

To destroy that life at any point after conception is a heinous act against the Creator.

That is the bottom line.

People today are “without natural affection” and their hearts are hardened and consciences seared that they won’t even hear the truth.

I mean I cannot even believe we have to have this conversation.

Don’t murder your children. It’s wrong!

Whos murdering children.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Why? If a dam is built, do you need to prepare for flooding downstream? No. Because the dam is there and holds back the water so you dont NEED flood control plans. Unless you fear the dam is going to break (or be dismantled) there is no sane reason to waste time on individual flood control measures.

So in reality they havent had 50 years. Only 2 or 3 months. (or however far back it was leaked) Maybe a year if you consider when the MS suit was granted cert.

Yes some states have trigger laws. I consider those states crazy zealots.

Ah yes, because wanting to have a plan in place to protect children who are being poisoned, stabbed, dismembered, or otherwise killed in various gruesome ways, instead of having to wait months while thousands of more lives are lost, makes one a crazy zealot.

Totally makes sense.

 

[chipbennett]

I stopped with the first sentence,
My fallacious arguments. lol
Feel free to place me in your ignore box,
Good Day.

Yes. Fallacious. To claim that "life begins at first breath" is Biblical doctrine because of the account of God's creation of Adam is sophistry. It takes a story entirely out of context and applies it to a doctrinal claim that contradicts other Biblical teaching that specifically addresses the nature of human life. It is utter and complete nonsense. To wit:

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

- Jeremiah 1:5

According to the bible, we are alive before we are even formed in the womb - because we are first and foremost, spiritual beings, in God's image. Even so, here God has consecrated as a prophet someone who was not yet born.

"For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them."

- Psalm 139 13:16

This passage is quite clear that the human is alive in the womb, alive and known by God, even while still in the womb.

"Listen to me, O coastlands,
and give attention, you peoples from afar.
The Lord called me from the womb,
from the body of my mother he named my name."

- Isaiah 49:1

Again, God calls a prophet and names him, while still in the womb.

"But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace..."

- Galatians 1:15

Again, God calls Paul before he was born.

“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

- Exodus 21:22-25

This one is really going to suck for the "Bible claims life begins at first breath" nonsense. How can one be faced with "life for life" consequences for a stillborn baby, if that baby never took a "first breath" outside the womb?

"For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy."

- Luke 1:44

A baby leaping for joy in the womb.

"And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit..."

- Luke 1:41

Again, a baby leaping for joy in the womb.

"And now the Lord says,
he who formed me from the womb to be his servant,
to bring Jacob back to him;
and that Israel might be gathered to him—
for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord,
and my God has become my strength"

- Isaiah 49:5

God forming the prophet in the womb.

"In the womb he took his brother by the heel,
and in his manhood he strove with God."

- Hosea 12:3

Jacob's agency, acting toward Esau, in the womb.

"Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself..."

- Isaiah 44:24

God forming in the womb.

"There was a certain man of Zorah, of the tribe of the Danites, whose name was Manoah. And his wife was barren and had no children. And the angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, “Behold, you are barren and have not borne children, but you shall conceive and bear a son. Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. No razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb, and he shall begin to save Israel from the hand of the Philistines.” Then the woman came and told her husband, “A man of God came to me, and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. I did not ask him where he was from, and he did not tell me his name, but he said to me, ‘Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. So then drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.’”"

- Judges 13:2-7

Samson was to be set apart as a Nazarite, which meant abstaining from alcohol and unclean food. His pregnant mother was required to abstain from the same, because they would defile the living child in her womb due to his exposure through his mother.

"And he told her all his heart, and said to her, “A razor has never come upon my head, for I have been a Nazirite to God from my mother's womb. If my head is shaved, then my strength will leave me, and I shall become weak and be like any other man.”"

- Judges 16:17

"...a Nazarite to God from my mother's womb..."

"...for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb..."

- Luke 1:15

Guess what? John the Baptist? Also a Nazarite. Here, the Bible claims that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb.

"Did not he who made me in the womb make him?
And did not one fashion us in the womb?"

- Job 31:15

I'm kind of starting to repeat myself here. We are formed, and known, in the womb.

"The children struggled together within her, and she said, “If it is thus, why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the Lord."

- Genesis 25:22

Jacob and Esau, struggling in the womb.

"Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God."

- Psalm 22:9-10

How can God be the God of the unliving?

"Or why was I not as a hidden stillborn child,
as infants who never see the light?"

- Job 3:16

How can the unliving (i.e. stillborn) be referred to as "infants"?

 

[Cameramonkey]

Ah yes, because wanting to have a plan in place to protect children who are being poisoned, stabbed, dismembered, or otherwise killed in various gruesome ways, instead of having to wait months while thousands of more lives are lost, makes one a crazy zealot.

Totally makes sense.

Just saying that if there is a law already in place, there is no need to make a backup law in case the first law is struck down. Its not rational.

What other trigger laws should we push our legislators to enact in case a federal law is struck down? (rhetorical)

And you're sounding like one of those gun grabbers. JUST PASS A LAW NOW! WE DONT CARE IF ITS A GOOD LAW OR NOT! NOWWWWW!!!!

 

[chipbennett]

You just dont seem to get that,
I dont need a book of your morals & indoctrination. I had enought as a child/young adult.
Your belief's are yours. Im entitled to mine.

Then you probably shouldn't condescend to believers by telling us (wrongly) what our "book of morals & indoctrination" teaches. Also, you probably shouldn't bring up that "book of morals & indoctrination" as support for your (apparent) support for abortion up until birth. Support your views using your own arguments instead of misrepresenting our "book of morals & indoctrination."

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Just saying that if there is a law already in place, there is no need to make a backup law in case the first law is struck down. Its not rational.

Roe v Wade was so obviously an illogical decision, and egregiously wrong from the beginning. Add this to the fact that legalized abortion has claimed more lives that any other single cause you can point to in our country, and I would say placing it in a special category of needing to be prepared for it to be struck down is completely rational.

And you're sounding like one of those gun grabbers. JUST PASS A LAW NOW! WE DONT CARE IF ITS A GOOD LAW OR NOT! NOWWWWW!!!!

Firstly, why do you think the gun grabbers are so effective at getting what they want?

Secondly, and I think this is the main difference between us, I don't believe for a second that waiting is going to make the law eventually passed any better. Waiting will only give the other side more time to apply pressure, look for cracks, and clamber for compromise. The law we need is simple and straightforward, not complex and convoluted.

 

[jamil]

This thread.......

View attachment 209929

This thread should have followed the typical thread evolution. We should be arguing about food.

 

[Ingomike]

This thread.......

View attachment 209929

I think it a good thread. It really shows who people are in their heart…

 

[Creedmoor]

This thread should have followed the typical thread evolution. We should be arguing about food.

For lunch yesterday I had a ham, green pepper and pineapple pizza. Excellence...
And 9mm and Shovelheads rule.

 

[areamike]

For lunch yesterday I had a ham, green pepper and pineapple pizza. Excellence...
And 9mm and Shovelheads rule.

Whoa! Easy now! Everyone knows a 9mm will blow your lung out of your body!
22LR is much safer.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Secondly, and I think this is the main difference between us, I don't believe for a second that waiting is going to make the law eventually passed any better. Waiting will only give the other side more time to apply pressure, look for cracks, and clamber for compromise. The law we need is simple and straightforward, not complex and convoluted.

Except you dont get ANYTHING good with a rushed bill. You just cant.

Unless you only support absolute 110% prohibition with less than zero exception. Then you are correct. You can get an abortion bill in one day. Not a good one, but a bill.