Larry Vickers at Lebanon Police Range

[brchixwing]

Glad you were not injured! I was next to you on the firing line and thought your handgun accidentally got discharged upon holstering (now it makes way more sense). It was a weird sequence of events because he was explaining to my neighbor not to handle a weapon while he was downrange, which probably made him even more inflexible with a zero tolerance policy for the incident.

I made a mistake in the late afternoon and discharged my handgun into the berm after another drill (explained above) and he did move past it. Someone on the line cracked a joke that I wanted to get out of picking up brass which added some levity to the situation.

Well, that EFFIng sucked. Negligent Discharge perpetrator here. I am so pissed at myself!
I do want to give a quick AAR, mostly to serve as an example for others.

LAV is making a quick point about something while setting up the second firing line for transition drill. Note that he is making a point, we are not online yet, prepping to fire. I decide, in CLEAR Violation of safety, that I need to load my pistol at that time. That initiated an unfortunate chain of events. Even if I simply chamber a round and holster, I am still violating a safety rule. But, I have a double feed. Now I have to **** with my gun. I pull the mag and re-seat it. Another double. The safety officer tells me to holster. I heard and understood him. However, my brain is used to "drop the hammer and holster". That's not what he said, and he certainly did not ask me to lock and show clear. I am just used to hearing those commands, but this is a different environment and I was given a different command. My fault. I know Larry is downrange, not in my line of sight, but downrange none the less so I cannot point at the berm. I tell myself the safest thing to do is point at the ground before dropping the hammer. No click...bang. Even though I saw an obvious double feed, I must have told myself that those rounds fell out. One of them didn't. One of them went into the ground very close to me.

1. Every gun is always loaded.
2. Never muzzle anything you aren't willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off of the trigger.
4. Be sure of your target and what's beyond.


I feel like #2 saved me from having a much worse day. I shot the ground by my foot, but that is where I was pointing it. I obviously violated #1 & #3, as my gun did have a round loaded and nothing told me to touch the trigger except my own poor decision.

Anyway, embarrassed a **** & not a great way to get a reputation in INGO.

Just remember to practice safety. Don't be that guy. Which, in this scenario, is me.....

 

[brchixwing]

Did you get your FN signed?!

My FN FNX Tac slide is milled for a red dot, I wonder if I can put one of my EOTechs on it. LAV would love that.

”Also That Guy”

 

[brchixwing]

I did some googling today while I was digesting McDonald's after lunch, it seems like the MCX and federal ammo do not get along!

https://sigtalk.com/sig-sauer-rifle...s-not-groups-federal-american-eagle-ammo.html
MCX hybrid 16" using XM193 and 62gr Speer Gold Dot .223.
Distance was 50 yds, benched. Geissele SSA-MCX, bipod, Steiner 1-4 P4XI on 4x (no illumination).
XM193 shot roughly a 3" pattern. Gold dot grouped into 1".

I have a (actually two, since Sig replaced the upper) MCX Patrol that does not group with American Eagle ammo, including XM193 and 55 Gr. FMJ. By not grouping I mean 20 MOA+ at 50 yards.

Yeah it happend thank God nobody was injured. Learn from it I have been in the presence of many ND's during my career some of them ended very badly.

Great class I am sure one of our wordsmiths will do a proper AAR.
LAV lived up to the reputation IMO He pulled no punches and put out a lot of information. His drills seem to be logical and to the point the use of paper targets made me realize how sloppy I had become shooting steel.
It was great to train with my INGO friends again.

I showed up with few things LAV does not care for a EO tech and a single point sling. That's OK !

I am sure all in attendance will testify to how sexy I looked shooting them!

On gear
The SIG MCX I bought for the class turned out to be a turd it shoots 4 inch groups at 50 yards. I had to use my faithful SIG M400 which is a tack driver. I also used my Walther PPX it shoots as good if not better than the Glooks and others twice its price.

BTW
I anyone would like to know LAV does not seem to care for the MCX much.

"That Guy"

 

[rhino]

A few people have mentioned clearing weapons. Was there a reason you were emptying your guns in the middle of class, perhaps for specific drills?

 

[SmileDocHill]

A few people have mentioned clearing weapons. Was there a reason you were emptying your guns in the middle of class, perhaps for specific drills?

Here is what I think is going on that can be confusing to the non-attendee reader. This is NOT a criticism of how Mr. Vickers ran his class. This is me thinking out loud. As you know, rino, depending on the experience of the shootes in the class these can be done safely in several ways.
Vickers had a cold range protocol going at first where everyone was mag out, chamber clear, safety on, and slung unless instructed otherwise. We had 2 squads of shooters. Later in the course, at times he would switch gears and instruct the squad that just shot to go with "big boy rules" and safety on, slung, and don't touch it other than to keep it from swinging and sweeping something.
I've been to classes that did it on both ends of the spectrum. Either are safe with instruction. My notes from the perspective of an instructor trying to make our (Revere's Riders) carbine class better: I think changing gears was one more mental excercise too many for some given the flood of information our brains were already getting. I'm honestly not thinking of anyone in particular when I say that, it's just one of my take away's, and any course I help with will either have a uniform policy throughout the course or there will be a very distinct shift in protocol with reason and instruction.
Generally, the attendees for this class looked pretty sorted out.

 

[Brad69]

Rhino,
Yes we were doing some drills that required one round, malfunction drills and during some limited dry work that required repeated clearing and loading.

Cedartop,
To springboard off of pierce 195 LAV’s information didn’t wander off track to story time about how great they are like other instructors as I am sure you have witnessed before. One thing that impressed me he gave his honest opinion on equipment not saying you need and go buy this great for a guy who has LAV edition weapons and gear.

brchixwing,
I was using Hornady Frontier and Winchester XM193 I am gonna send it back to SIG and see if it’s good and then try a variety of 62 grain fodder. Will SIG wipe off the LAV signature?

 

[cedartop]

Well, that EFFIng sucked. Negligent Discharge perpetrator here. I am so pissed at myself!
I do want to give a quick AAR, mostly to serve as an example for others.

LAV is making a quick point about something while setting up the second firing line for transition drill. Note that he is making a point, we are not online yet, prepping to fire. I decide, in CLEAR Violation of safety, that I need to load my pistol at that time. That initiated an unfortunate chain of events. Even if I simply chamber a round and holster, I am still violating a safety rule. But, I have a double feed. Now I have to **** with my gun. I pull the mag and re-seat it. Another double. The safety officer tells me to holster. I heard and understood him. However, my brain is used to "drop the hammer and holster". That's not what he said, and he certainly did not ask me to lock and show clear. I am just used to hearing those commands, but this is a different environment and I was given a different command. My fault. I know Larry is downrange, not in my line of sight, but downrange none the less so I cannot point at the berm. I tell myself the safest thing to do is point at the ground before dropping the hammer. No click...bang. Even though I saw an obvious double feed, I must have told myself that those rounds fell out. One of them didn't. One of them went into the ground very close to me.

1. Every gun is always loaded.
2. Never muzzle anything you aren't willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off of the trigger.
4. Be sure of your target and what's beyond.


I feel like #2 saved me from having a much worse day. I shot the ground by my foot, but that is where I was pointing it. I obviously violated #1 & #3, as my gun did have a round loaded and nothing told me to touch the trigger except my own poor decision.

Anyway, embarrassed a **** & not a great way to get a reputation in INGO.

Just remember to practice safety. Don't be that guy. Which, in this scenario, is me.....

I wasn't there so I can only go by what you have written and maybe I am not totally clear on that, but, I have trained with a number of instructors who would have kicked you out of class for that. Not because you had an ND, but because you violated a number of rules to get there. I am assuming though that you stayed in class. If you don't mind I have a few questions.

Did LAV or anyone else give out clear gunhandling instructions at the beginning of class?

Have you participated in a class with a hot range before?

Do you think you should have been DQ'd as it were?

I am glad no one was hurt, and I am sure there were lessons learned.

 

[ditcherman]

Did you get your FN signed?!

Haha no, I'll wait til i mount the EOTech on it.

 

[SmileDocHill]

I wasn't there so I can only go by what you have written and maybe I am not totally clear on that, but, I have trained with a number of instructors who would have kicked you out of class for that. Not because you had an ND, but because you violated a number of rules to get there. I am assuming though that you stayed in class. If you don't mind I have a few questions.

Did LAV or anyone else give out clear gunhandling instructions at the beginning of class?

Have you participated in a class with a hot range before?

Do you think you should have been DQ'd as it were?

I am glad no one was hurt, and I am sure there were lessons learned.

LAV was very professional, made sure he was ok, not too shaken up to drive, even asked if he rode with anyone else, but then stated that he was done for the day. Said something like "I want to make sure that you are ok but unfortunately I have to have you call it a day" . It is my impression that that is pretty much the industry standard for these courses, uspsa, Friday night steel... ~"you are welcome to come back next time (unless habitual), but as a matter of policy, break the 180, have an nd, loose control of your weapon... and your day is done"

 

[ditcherman]

Here is what I think is going on that can be confusing to the non-attendee reader. This is NOT a criticism of how Mr. Vickers ran his class. This is me thinking out loud. As you know, rino, depending on the experience of the shootes in the class these can be done safely in several ways.
Vickers had a cold range protocol going at first where everyone was mag out, chamber clear, safety on, and slung unless instructed otherwise. We had 2 squads of shooters. Later in the course, at times he would switch gears and instruct the squad that just shot to go with "big boy rules" and safety on, slung, and don't touch it other than to keep it from swinging and sweeping something.
I've been to classes that did it on both ends of the spectrum. Either are safe with instruction. My notes from the perspective of an instructor trying to make our (Revere's Riders) carbine class better: I think changing gears was one more mental excercise too many for some given the flood of information our brains were already getting. I'm honestly not thinking of anyone in particular when I say that, it's just one of my take away's, and any course I help with will either have a uniform policy throughout the course or there will be a very distinct shift in protocol with reason and instruction.
Generally, the attendees for this class looked pretty sorted out.

I would add that I heard the phrase "big boy rules" from a distance in passing after the fact while other stuff was going on - point is that I felt like there was no clear distinction as to when we went to this protocol. The first relay just started turning around to wait their turn hot. I was glad everyone there was sorted out because I thought that could have led to a higher potential of accidents. Changing gears was a mental exercise that did take some resources to understand, and to make sure you were aware that others were actually sorted out along with your own responsibilities. I was fine with it, as this is how things will work in the real world, just a little unnerving at first.
I appreciate your logic of having a distinct shift for just a two day class of basically strangers.

 

[cedartop]

LAV was very professional, made sure he was ok, not too shaken up to drive, even asked if he rode with anyone else, but then stated that he was done for the day. Said something like "I want to make sure that you are ok but unfortunately I have to have you call it a day" . It is my impression that that is pretty much the industry standard for these courses, uspsa, Friday night steel... ~"you are welcome to come back next time (unless habitual), but as a matter of policy, break the 180, have an nd, loose control of your weapon... and your day is done"

Thanks. I just saw your response to rhino which helped clear things up a little as well

 

[ditcherman]

Had a great time shooting with you all. Impressed with the professionalism of LAV and the practicality of the the training. Everything was done with a purpose and reason based on his (vast) experience. The cruddy weather on Saturday made it even better.

I will also add, this course gave me an even greater appreciation for the Revere's Riders carbine course and what Nigel and crew were able to accomplish under (IMO) more challenging conditions.

+1 for this

 

[SmileDocHill]

I have the class photo. If any of the attendees want it pm me your email and I'll send it to you.

 

[gopher]

Had a great time shooting with you all. Impressed with the professionalism of LAV and the practicality of the the training. Everything was done with a purpose and reason based on his (vast) experience. The cruddy weather on Saturday made it even better.

I will also add, this course gave me an even greater appreciation for the Revere's Riders carbine course and what Nigel and crew were able to accomplish under (IMO) more challenging conditions.

Thanks for that comment! All of us at Revere's Riders take our firearms training courses very seriously and strive to provide one of the best (if not THE best) values for the money.

 

[gopher]

+1 for this

Thanks for comparing us favorably with LAV. Much appreciated!