IU grad workers vote to strike, picket on campus

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  • bwframe

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    That's not really accurate for PhD students. I'm in Physics, the same stuff will be basically true for PhD programs in natural sciences (chem, bio, etc), math, and most of the social sciences, and for PhDs but not masters degrees in engineering. There's also some funding for PhDs in literature, philosophy, etc, but those are less universal. Basically, no one pays for a PhD in the (natural) sciences.

    This is really long. Sorry. All of this should be considered typical and not exhaustive of every detail.



    There's a couple of things. One is tuition cost. This number is around 40k USD/yr for graduate students. There'd be no way I'd attend if I had to go into that kind of debt, and most other's wouldn't, either. But that's before salary/stipend, which is about 30k before taxes. I don't pay tax on the tuition, but grad students really shouldn't since it's a made-up number that the university pays itself by taking money from one pocket and sticking it into the other. If we got taxed on that, tuition would go up, stipends would go up, and it would basically be a zero-sum game that just causes a bunch of headache for the student.

    Quick rant about the cost of undergraduate tuition (which I conjecture helps set the rate of the fictitious graduate tuition):
    Historically. College was *much* more affordable. People could work part time and pay for school back in the day. But now college is sold as an experience. It is not an education, but a cocoon of transformation and growth that only it could possibly provide. As such, there's a competition from universities to bring in money and build amenities to attract students, etc. Point of reference for my perspective - **** bottom of the middle class and lived at home to commute to the local state college for four years of a pretty decent education. During that time, I knew people from the next town over or even 15 minutes from the school who lived in the dorms for the experience. $11k/yr just to live 20 minutes from home. My cost to commute and all was probably around $3k/yr. Being from the shallow end of the middle class, I couldn't justify such a cost. They had parents who were happy to pay, good for them. Okay. So now we have a runaway problem of spending to attract students to have money to spend for amenities. All the while professors make a little more after inflation, but the amount of administration explodes in order to keep up with all of the amenities that they need to maintain to have the best experience (again, not edumacation but experience).

    Okay. So. Graduate tuition rates are made up. No big deal. We need researchers to do cool stuff. Camera in cell phones? Invented by physicists. World Wide Web? Invented by physicists to share data. Etc. etc. Even the "this will never be useful" work is often useful or has side benefits of creating transformative technologies. We need to compress images to send pictures from outer-****ing-space... Thanks for the JPEG, astronomers. There are many examples like this such as black holes are really the "simplest" case of a strongly correlated system, which will almost surely transform technology once we (other physicists) figure out wtf is going on. I'm just in physics, but there's similar examples in all those less interesting fields, too.

    Alright.. There's a compelling economic reason to fund research and keep those findings public. Due to the years of labor required to do that, there are compelling reasons to pay graduate students for those efforts. People do work, they get paid. We're capitalists, sure. How do they get that payment?

    There are research assistanceships, in which we get paid just for doing research (in which the prof. asks the money management people to move money to the graduate school's people). The idea is if doing research full time, we get more accomplished. These funds are typically from external grants via the professor/advisor, but can also be for fellowships directed for the student.

    The other method of payment is a teaching assistanceship (which includes the dept. moving money from it's pocket to the graduate school's pocket). At Purdue, this is a 20 hour/wk position (typically). We are expected to put in approximately 20 hours of total effort on average per week. In reality, it's often less than that. I taught physics for engineering students and came in under that. When I taught the physics for bio/chem people, I put in at least 20 hrs/wk if not more, but I was a particularly dedicated TA and pushed the students hard (10% loved it, 30% hated me, the middle was the middle).


    As to the amount: It's not a lot of money. And truthfully, I'd be content with a raise, but it is enough to survive off of, and I'm not content lying about that in order to get a raise. We perform skilled labor (of varying quality) while effective apprentices. If we looked at an apprenticeship of say a plumber, the apprentice probably makes more. So maybe we are due for a raise on the merits. But the plumber apprentice doesn't get a PhD and start making 6-figures in industry, so maybe we need to go back to the accounting.

    I did have a side gig throughout most of my PhD (until I started a secondary project). It did make a substantial difference in terms of being about to eat at restaurants, but I was so busy it ate into the extra income. I was definitely more satisfied with homemade food from my earlier days. Also, I had to dip into savings from those side gigs when I stopped having extra income but maintained spending not realizing the degree to which my net income was affected (those people in the CZ thread are terrible influences). Lesson in money management learned.

    Foreign students are literally not allow to have a job outside of the university without breaking federal law - it's a condition of their student visas. Many of them live very frugally and even send money back home to help family. I think the Americans need to learn to make coffee at home (or at the office, for $0.50 I can get a pump-machine espresso. Pretty sweet deal), and learn how to manage off of a meager wage. It's enough to live off of, and will build a little character. Maybe it will even help them be more charitable when they earn better.

    We in fact are professional students. And further, that's not a bad thing. PhDs are not like bachelors (or even most masters) degrees. A bachelors degree is a survey of a field. You learn a little or this, a little of that. PhDs are a training in independent research and are awarded when the student has brought forth something new that the world didn't know. Our years of schooling is really just a bump in human knowledge:
    My collaborator tells his students that he expects 60 hr workweeks from them (I don't hit that mark, but I'm probably in the 50 hr/wk ballpark of actual work). The amount of work needed to succeed in graduate school in a 5-6 year timeline requires a lot of dedication and time. So, we have a 20 hr payment officially, but are expected to be obsessed with the work. There's more that could be said, but this post is already far too long.

    There are issues with inflation, and I don't know details about IU, but Purdue does adjust yearly based on cost of living (we're barely above the poverty line). Also remember that most people who've made it through four-years of bachelors and are continuing on are raging leftists or have gotten beaten-down by the leftists - including me, though apparently I have a reputation for being the conservative grad student in the program (I do view myself as a conservative, but I've had at least one relative call me the D-word). Sadly, open debate isn't encouraged except to have people "fall in line." Reasonable people can disagree, but it upsets me slightly how no one's BS meter ever goes haywire hearing some of the claims, and when pressed, they accuse you some sort of -ism. Some of the things I've heard from other grad students are straight-up (cultural or fiscal) Marxist nonsense and riddled with inconsistencies (in short, I don't trust methods that involve other people putting in the money/time when the person making the argument is the one to gain even if only by their own self-adulation).

    I do have ideas on how to reduce college costs, and there's too many young people in college, but that's a different discussion and I've got work to do.






    All this education and my first attempt at cocoon was cacoon. Embarrassing.

    Don't really have anything to say. Just thought this needed quoting... ;)
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    That's not really accurate for PhD students. I'm in Physics, the same stuff will be basically true for PhD programs in natural sciences (chem, bio, etc), math, and most of the social sciences, and for PhDs but not masters degrees in engineering. There's also some funding for PhDs in literature, philosophy, etc, but those are less universal. Basically, no one pays for a PhD in the (natural) sciences.

    This is really long. Sorry. All of this should be considered typical and not exhaustive of every detail.



    There's a couple of things. One is tuition cost. This number is around 40k USD/yr for graduate students. There'd be no way I'd attend if I had to go into that kind of debt, and most other's wouldn't, either. But that's before salary/stipend, which is about 30k before taxes. I don't pay tax on the tuition, but grad students really shouldn't since it's a made-up number that the university pays itself by taking money from one pocket and sticking it into the other. If we got taxed on that, tuition would go up, stipends would go up, and it would basically be a zero-sum game that just causes a bunch of headache for the student.

    Quick rant about the cost of undergraduate tuition (which I conjecture helps set the rate of the fictitious graduate tuition):
    Historically. College was *much* more affordable. People could work part time and pay for school back in the day. But now college is sold as an experience. It is not an education, but a cocoon of transformation and growth that only it could possibly provide. As such, there's a competition from universities to bring in money and build amenities to attract students, etc. Point of reference for my perspective - **** bottom of the middle class and lived at home to commute to the local state college for four years of a pretty decent education. During that time, I knew people from the next town over or even 15 minutes from the school who lived in the dorms for the experience. $11k/yr just to live 20 minutes from home. My cost to commute and all was probably around $3k/yr. Being from the shallow end of the middle class, I couldn't justify such a cost. They had parents who were happy to pay, good for them. Okay. So now we have a runaway problem of spending to attract students to have money to spend for amenities. All the while professors make a little more after inflation, but the amount of administration explodes in order to keep up with all of the amenities that they need to maintain to have the best experience (again, not edumacation but experience).

    Okay. So. Graduate tuition rates are made up. No big deal. We need researchers to do cool stuff. Camera in cell phones? Invented by physicists. World Wide Web? Invented by physicists to share data. Etc. etc. Even the "this will never be useful" work is often useful or has side benefits of creating transformative technologies. We need to compress images to send pictures from outer-****ing-space... Thanks for the JPEG, astronomers. There are many examples like this such as black holes are really the "simplest" case of a strongly correlated system, which will almost surely transform technology once we (other physicists) figure out wtf is going on. I'm just in physics, but there's similar examples in all those less interesting fields, too.

    Alright.. There's a compelling economic reason to fund research and keep those findings public. Due to the years of labor required to do that, there are compelling reasons to pay graduate students for those efforts. People do work, they get paid. We're capitalists, sure. How do they get that payment?

    There are research assistanceships, in which we get paid just for doing research (in which the prof. asks the money management people to move money to the graduate school's people). The idea is if doing research full time, we get more accomplished. These funds are typically from external grants via the professor/advisor, but can also be for fellowships directed for the student.

    The other method of payment is a teaching assistanceship (which includes the dept. moving money from it's pocket to the graduate school's pocket). At Purdue, this is a 20 hour/wk position (typically). We are expected to put in approximately 20 hours of total effort on average per week. In reality, it's often less than that. I taught physics for engineering students and came in under that. When I taught the physics for bio/chem people, I put in at least 20 hrs/wk if not more, but I was a particularly dedicated TA and pushed the students hard (10% loved it, 30% hated me, the middle was the middle).


    As to the amount: It's not a lot of money. And truthfully, I'd be content with a raise, but it is enough to survive off of, and I'm not content lying about that in order to get a raise. We perform skilled labor (of varying quality) while effective apprentices. If we looked at an apprenticeship of say a plumber, the apprentice probably makes more. So maybe we are due for a raise on the merits. But the plumber apprentice doesn't get a PhD and start making 6-figures in industry, so maybe we need to go back to the accounting.

    I did have a side gig throughout most of my PhD (until I started a secondary project). It did make a substantial difference in terms of being about to eat at restaurants, but I was so busy it ate into the extra income. I was definitely more satisfied with homemade food from my earlier days. Also, I had to dip into savings from those side gigs when I stopped having extra income but maintained spending not realizing the degree to which my net income was affected (those people in the CZ thread are terrible influences). Lesson in money management learned.

    Foreign students are literally not allow to have a job outside of the university without breaking federal law - it's a condition of their student visas. Many of them live very frugally and even send money back home to help family. I think the Americans need to learn to make coffee at home (or at the office, for $0.50 I can get a pump-machine espresso. Pretty sweet deal), and learn how to manage off of a meager wage. It's enough to live off of, and will build a little character. Maybe it will even help them be more charitable when they earn better.

    We in fact are professional students. And further, that's not a bad thing. PhDs are not like bachelors (or even most masters) degrees. A bachelors degree is a survey of a field. You learn a little or this, a little of that. PhDs are a training in independent research and are awarded when the student has brought forth something new that the world didn't know. Our years of schooling is really just a bump in human knowledge:
    My collaborator tells his students that he expects 60 hr workweeks from them (I don't hit that mark, but I'm probably in the 50 hr/wk ballpark of actual work). The amount of work needed to succeed in graduate school in a 5-6 year timeline requires a lot of dedication and time. So, we have a 20 hr payment officially, but are expected to be obsessed with the work. There's more that could be said, but this post is already far too long.

    There are issues with inflation, and I don't know details about IU, but Purdue does adjust yearly based on cost of living (we're barely above the poverty line). Also remember that most people who've made it through four-years of bachelors and are continuing on are raging leftists or have gotten beaten-down by the leftists - including me, though apparently I have a reputation for being the conservative grad student in the program (I do view myself as a conservative, but I've had at least one relative call me the D-word). Sadly, open debate isn't encouraged except to have people "fall in line." Reasonable people can disagree, but it upsets me slightly how no one's BS meter ever goes haywire hearing some of the claims, and when pressed, they accuse you some sort of -ism. Some of the things I've heard from other grad students are straight-up (cultural or fiscal) Marxist nonsense and riddled with inconsistencies (in short, I don't trust methods that involve other people putting in the money/time when the person making the argument is the one to gain even if only by their own self-adulation).

    I do have ideas on how to reduce college costs, and there's too many young people in college, but that's a different discussion and I've got work to do.






    All this education and my first attempt at cocoon was cacoon. Embarrassing.
    iu
     

    drillsgt

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    You and me both. Then after the degree, I put in about 10 years of paying dues before it started to pay off and then another 10 before it started to really pay off. 20 years? Yes. This is exactly what most people in my generation expected....and it pains us to see the young ones getting impatient 2 years in.
    That sounds about right, I've worked with a lot of surgeons and was definitely jealous of their $$ but you figure 4 years undergrad, 4 years of medical school, 4-5 years of residency and then 1 year of fellowship before they can even really start making money.
     

    Twangbanger

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    The "economic plight of grad students" is perhaps one of the best examples of the effect disproportionate immigration can have on wages within a source of employment. 35 years ago, the Purdue Grad student registry already looked like a Hong Kong phone directory. Many of them lived in apartments with little more than a mattress on the floor.

    It tanks wages so bad, liberals need a union just to get fair treatment by other liberals. Of course, true to their institutionalized minds, many American grad students would probably consider you a "racist" for pointing this out.

    (The foreign ones would just frankly acknowledge it).

    Professors *bristle* at any criticism of their foreign grad students or their enthusiastic utilization of them. They sound exactly the same as a redneck in a truck, defending his use of Mexican roofers.

    It turns out the University really _is_ precisely the sort of plantation the grad students believe it to be.
     
    Last edited:

    Vodnik4

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    That's not really accurate for PhD students. I'm in Physics, the same stuff will be basically true for PhD programs in natural sciences (chem, bio, etc), math, and most of the social sciences, and for PhDs but not masters degrees in engineering. There's also some funding for PhDs in literature, philosophy, etc, but those are less universal. Basically, no one pays for a PhD in the (natural) sciences.

    This is really long. Sorry. All of this should be considered typical and not exhaustive of every detail.



    There's a couple of things. One is tuition cost. This number is around 40k USD/yr for graduate students. There'd be no way I'd attend if I had to go into that kind of debt, and most other's wouldn't, either. But that's before salary/stipend, which is about 30k before taxes. I don't pay tax on the tuition, but grad students really shouldn't since it's a made-up number that the university pays itself by taking money from one pocket and sticking it into the other. If we got taxed on that, tuition would go up, stipends would go up, and it would basically be a zero-sum game that just causes a bunch of headache for the student.

    Quick rant about the cost of undergraduate tuition (which I conjecture helps set the rate of the fictitious graduate tuition):
    Historically. College was *much* more affordable. People could work part time and pay for school back in the day. But now college is sold as an experience. It is not an education, but a cocoon of transformation and growth that only it could possibly provide. As such, there's a competition from universities to bring in money and build amenities to attract students, etc. Point of reference for my perspective - **** bottom of the middle class and lived at home to commute to the local state college for four years of a pretty decent education. During that time, I knew people from the next town over or even 15 minutes from the school who lived in the dorms for the experience. $11k/yr just to live 20 minutes from home. My cost to commute and all was probably around $3k/yr. Being from the shallow end of the middle class, I couldn't justify such a cost. They had parents who were happy to pay, good for them. Okay. So now we have a runaway problem of spending to attract students to have money to spend for amenities. All the while professors make a little more after inflation, but the amount of administration explodes in order to keep up with all of the amenities that they need to maintain to have the best experience (again, not edumacation but experience).

    Okay. So. Graduate tuition rates are made up. No big deal. We need researchers to do cool stuff. Camera in cell phones? Invented by physicists. World Wide Web? Invented by physicists to share data. Etc. etc. Even the "this will never be useful" work is often useful or has side benefits of creating transformative technologies. We need to compress images to send pictures from outer-****ing-space... Thanks for the JPEG, astronomers. There are many examples like this such as black holes are really the "simplest" case of a strongly correlated system, which will almost surely transform technology once we (other physicists) figure out wtf is going on. I'm just in physics, but there's similar examples in all those less interesting fields, too.

    Alright.. There's a compelling economic reason to fund research and keep those findings public. Due to the years of labor required to do that, there are compelling reasons to pay graduate students for those efforts. People do work, they get paid. We're capitalists, sure. How do they get that payment?

    There are research assistanceships, in which we get paid just for doing research (in which the prof. asks the money management people to move money to the graduate school's people). The idea is if doing research full time, we get more accomplished. These funds are typically from external grants via the professor/advisor, but can also be for fellowships directed for the student.

    The other method of payment is a teaching assistanceship (which includes the dept. moving money from it's pocket to the graduate school's pocket). At Purdue, this is a 20 hour/wk position (typically). We are expected to put in approximately 20 hours of total effort on average per week. In reality, it's often less than that. I taught physics for engineering students and came in under that. When I taught the physics for bio/chem people, I put in at least 20 hrs/wk if not more, but I was a particularly dedicated TA and pushed the students hard (10% loved it, 30% hated me, the middle was the middle).


    As to the amount: It's not a lot of money. And truthfully, I'd be content with a raise, but it is enough to survive off of, and I'm not content lying about that in order to get a raise. We perform skilled labor (of varying quality) while effective apprentices. If we looked at an apprenticeship of say a plumber, the apprentice probably makes more. So maybe we are due for a raise on the merits. But the plumber apprentice doesn't get a PhD and start making 6-figures in industry, so maybe we need to go back to the accounting.

    I did have a side gig throughout most of my PhD (until I started a secondary project). It did make a substantial difference in terms of being about to eat at restaurants, but I was so busy it ate into the extra income. I was definitely more satisfied with homemade food from my earlier days. Also, I had to dip into savings from those side gigs when I stopped having extra income but maintained spending not realizing the degree to which my net income was affected (those people in the CZ thread are terrible influences). Lesson in money management learned.

    Foreign students are literally not allow to have a job outside of the university without breaking federal law - it's a condition of their student visas. Many of them live very frugally and even send money back home to help family. I think the Americans need to learn to make coffee at home (or at the office, for $0.50 I can get a pump-machine espresso. Pretty sweet deal), and learn how to manage off of a meager wage. It's enough to live off of, and will build a little character. Maybe it will even help them be more charitable when they earn better.

    We in fact are professional students. And further, that's not a bad thing. PhDs are not like bachelors (or even most masters) degrees. A bachelors degree is a survey of a field. You learn a little or this, a little of that. PhDs are a training in independent research and are awarded when the student has brought forth something new that the world didn't know. Our years of schooling is really just a bump in human knowledge:
    My collaborator tells his students that he expects 60 hr workweeks from them (I don't hit that mark, but I'm probably in the 50 hr/wk ballpark of actual work). The amount of work needed to succeed in graduate school in a 5-6 year timeline requires a lot of dedication and time. So, we have a 20 hr payment officially, but are expected to be obsessed with the work. There's more that could be said, but this post is already far too long.

    There are issues with inflation, and I don't know details about IU, but Purdue does adjust yearly based on cost of living (we're barely above the poverty line). Also remember that most people who've made it through four-years of bachelors and are continuing on are raging leftists or have gotten beaten-down by the leftists - including me, though apparently I have a reputation for being the conservative grad student in the program (I do view myself as a conservative, but I've had at least one relative call me the D-word). Sadly, open debate isn't encouraged except to have people "fall in line." Reasonable people can disagree, but it upsets me slightly how no one's BS meter ever goes haywire hearing some of the claims, and when pressed, they accuse you some sort of -ism. Some of the things I've heard from other grad students are straight-up (cultural or fiscal) Marxist nonsense and riddled with inconsistencies (in short, I don't trust methods that involve other people putting in the money/time when the person making the argument is the one to gain even if only by their own self-adulation).

    I do have ideas on how to reduce college costs, and there's too many young people in college, but that's a different discussion and I've got work to do.






    All this education and my first attempt at cocoon was cacoon. Embarrassing.
    Spot on. I can confirm every single point.

    Funny story from my grad school experience:
    Our TA union , at a crazy progressive public university, went on strike. Same thing, more wages, blah blah blah. Natural sciences/ engineering majors with research assistant tips looked up from their work, said “huh?”, went back to work.
    Admin called union’s bluff, refused to negotiate (there goes that liberal cred). Much noise from the liberal arts major TA’s, marches, pickets, etc.
    After maybe a month or two, the union declared “we won! No raises, but we have a new better contract! Yay!”. My roommate had OCD and wanted to read the new contract, I tagged along for S&Gs. I think we were the only two people who bothered to. It was the exact same contract as we had before, with several sentences shuffled around. Yay! Victory!
     

    JEBland

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    Spot on. I can confirm every single point.

    Funny story from my grad school experience:
    Our TA union , at a crazy progressive public university, went on strike. Same thing, more wages, blah blah blah. Natural sciences/ engineering majors with research assistant tips looked up from their work, said “huh?”, went back to work.
    Admin called union’s bluff, refused to negotiate (there goes that liberal cred). Much noise from the liberal arts major TA’s, marches, pickets, etc.
    After maybe a month or two, the union declared “we won! No raises, but we have a new better contract! Yay!”. My roommate had OCD and wanted to read the new contract, I tagged along for S&Gs. I think we were the only two people who bothered to. It was the exact same contract as we had before, with several sentences shuffled around. Yay! Victory!
    Yeah... I'm not opposed to changes for the better, but we should have reasons and proper arguments and almost no one will wade through the :bs:to see what's in the new deal if they're given one.
     

    hooky

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    Yep. When I was considering a degree, among the top priorities was how much it paid and could I get a job doing it.
    I still remember when my former MIL asked me when I was going to get an MBA like her other SIL had recently done. The look on her face when I told her it made no sense for me to go back to school so I could take a pay cut for a job like "Mikey" had gotten was priceless.
     

    BigRed

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    Thirty-seven years ago I was a Graduate Assistant at IU Northwest --da Region. The work wasn't terrible and they paid my tuition -- no cash or anything else. I had a side job that didn't pay much but I thought I was in hog heaven!

    No....you were oppressed.
     

    Ark

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    On one hand, grad students absolutely are pampered brats who study nonsense in perpetuity so they can avoid actually having to work and compete in the real world.

    But on the other, IU is literally richer than God, and I've seen what they spend their money on. They get a pretty good deal off their grad student labor, and hold a lot of leverage over them. Surely IU can cough up a little more money to make up for the absurd cost of living inflation in Bloomington.

    The students should expect IU to play hardball, though. I still haven't forgotten that time they liquidated their custodial staff and made them reapply for their jobs at an outside contractor just to weasel out of having to pay health expenses.
     

    Leo

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    The fact that it is so easy to borrow money for school has built a glut of unmarketable graduates. I have talked to multiple people with unmarketable degrees and debt they cannot manage. In my best Socrates impersonation, I like to ask, "so what are you going to do about your inability to find work in your field?" The answer is predictable, "I guess I will go back and get my Masters".

    How can a person be still disconnected from reality at 25 years old? I guess they have been deprived of the experience of being homeless and hungry from wrong choices. That opportunity was mine because of other peoples' bad choices. At 17, the basic foundations of reality had already become ingrained.

    The entire Education, Inc. taxpayer funded machine needs a shot of reality. They spend money like a bimbo freshly divorced from a rich man. A few years where the windfall of money is cut off will force them to eliminate a good amount of waste, and concentrate on degrees they can sell people that pay their own way.
     

    Shadow01

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    Let’s see…. Communist institutions employing slave labor from hard left wing graduates and all of a sudden they toss out the idea of capitalism for the sake of survival.


    NFG.
     

    Ark

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    The fact that it is so easy to borrow money for school has built a glut of unmarketable graduates. I have talked to multiple people with unmarketable degrees and debt they cannot manage. In my best Socrates impersonation, I like to ask, "so what are you going to do about your inability to find work in your field?" The answer is predictable, "I guess I will go back and get my Masters".

    How can a person be still disconnected from reality at 25 years old? I guess they have been deprived of the experience of being homeless and hungry from wrong choices. That opportunity was mine because of other peoples' bad choices. At 17, the basic foundations of reality had already become ingrained.

    The entire Education, Inc. taxpayer funded machine needs a shot of reality. They spend money like a bimbo freshly divorced from a rich man. A few years where the windfall of money is cut off will force them to eliminate a good amount of waste, and concentrate on degrees they can sell people that pay their own way.
    One thing the academy is very good at doing is making you feel like you're smart and valued, intrinsically, just for existing and participating. That goes away when you hit the real world. Very easy to be tempted into going back, thinking you'll feel that way again.

    Next thing you know, you're in your 30s and owe $200,000 and have no worthwhile skills or experience.
     
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