Is 'waterboarding' a form of torture?

[Kutnupe14]

False equivalence. "Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander." Is a recipe for how not to fight a war. Guarantees that you'll lose.
One terrorist act like 911? Kill all the men in the country that supports it, sell the women and children to pirates and burn the place back to the stone age. Go home.

They won't do that stupid any more.

History has proven this to not be true.

 

[patience0830]

I understand the sentiment, but you understand why it shouldn't be done, right? To anybody, but in this instance, I'm speaking of American citizens.

I understand why we've been taught that it's wrong. Scared, we are that one of our beloved comrades will have it happen to them. Guess what? The opposition has no such compunction. They'll send their kids in suicide vests to kill people they disagree with religiously. Applying our rules to their treatment makes them think us weak.
Peace through strength. Don't screw with us, we'll pound you into sand. They'll get that msg.

 

[Trigger Time]

I understand the sentiment, but you understand why it shouldn't be done, right? To anybody, but in this instance, I'm speaking of American citizens.

Can citizenship be revoked in extreme cases by a judge or jury? I believe it should be. After that let the anal probing begin. Waterboarding is too generous

 

[patience0830]

Don't think anyone had actually done it properly yet. Genghis Kahn got fairly close.

Prolific fellow. They believe his seed was scattered all over the conquered areas. Musta spent as much time screwing as he did fighting just to take the edge off. After lopping off the heads of the men.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I understand why we've been taught that it's wrong. Scared, we are that one of our beloved comrades will have it happen to them. Guess what? The opposition has no such compunction. They'll send their kids in suicide vests to kill people they disagree with religiously. Applying our rules to their treatment makes them think us weak.
Peace through strength. Don't screw with us, we'll pound you into sand. They'll get that msg.

I was thinking along the lines of the Eighth Amendment. You either believe in "it" or you don't. There's no room to make exceptions.

 

[Trigger Time]

I was thinking along the lines of the Eighth Amendment. You either believe in "it" or you don't. There's no room to make exceptions.

Everything's up for lawyers and judges interpretation havent you been listening to the left? The constitution is just an outdated piece of paper until they want to use it to stall our nation, issue revenge, or push a socialist agenda. The Democrats are the ones that dont believe in anything kut. You cant use that arguement to support them

 

[patience0830]

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Straightforward, simple. Right?

I get your reservations, Kut. I just don't think we'll win the hearts and minds of the current jihadi enemy by applying our standards to them.

American citizens who ascribe to the beliefs of our enemy to the point that they no longer abide by nor defend the standards put forth in the constitution are worthy candidates to have their citizenship stripped and to be placed in the category of enemy combatant. The high moral standards expressed by the founders is admirable. Not sure it's defensibly functional in fighting Islamic terror.

I'm also not sure why we're currently debating Rambone's 2011 poll. The current CIA directoral candidate had said she won't do, or order anyone else to do, acts that fail her morality check. And apparently waterboarding fails that standard.

When do we get the list of definitions of what does and doesn't qualify?
Or is it like pornography? " I know it when I see it. "

 

[Kutnupe14]

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Straightforward, simple. Right?

I get your reservations, Kut. I just don't think we'll win the hearts and minds of the current jihadi enemy by applying our standards to them.

American citizens who ascribe to the beliefs of our enemy to the point that they no longer abide by nor defend the standards put forth in the constitution are worthy candidates to have their citizenship stripped and to be placed in the category of enemy combatant. The high moral standards expressed by the founders is admirable. Not sure it's defensibly functional in fighting Islamic terror.

I'm also not sure why we're currently debating Rambone's 2011 poll. The current CIA directoral candidate had said she won't do, or order anyone else to do, acts that fail her morality check. And apparently waterboarding fails that standard.

When do we get the list of definitions of what does and doesn't qualify?
Or is it like pornography? " I know it when I see it. "

I totally understand what you're getting at too, but I think having the moral highroad is a good thing, and should be maintained. I don't like the idea of sacrificing who we are, and who we have always been, because the other side doesn't observe the same.

 

[Sylvain]

Can citizenship be revoked in extreme cases by a judge or jury? I believe it should be. After that let the anal probing begin. Waterboarding is too generous

I believe only naturalized citizens can get their citizenship revoked.

1. Membership in Subversive Groups: Your citizenship may be revoked if the U.S. government can prove that you joined a subversive organization within five years of becoming a naturalized citizen. Membership in such organizations is considered a violation of the oath of U.S. allegiance. Examples include the Nazi Party and Al Qaeda.

Since you don't take an oath when you become a natural-born citizen it can't be a violation of your oath.

It's also possible in France.But only if the person was naturalized (so not born with a French citizenship) and has another citizenship.

We had a few cases of terrorists who lost their French citizenships.

Not sure it has ever happened in the US.
The Boston marathon bomber (Tsarnaev) is a naturalized citizen with a dual citizenship and he's still a US citizen.

 

[jedi]

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Straightforward, simple. Right?

I get your reservations, Kut. I just don't think we'll win the hearts and minds of the current jihadi enemy by applying our standards to them.

American citizens who ascribe to the beliefs of our enemy to the point that they no longer abide by nor defend the standards put forth in the constitution are worthy candidates to have their citizenship stripped and to be placed in the category of enemy combatant. The high moral standards expressed by the founders is admirable. Not sure it's defensibly functional in fighting Islamic terror.

I'm also not sure why we're currently debating Rambone's 2011 poll. The current CIA directoral candidate had said she won't do, or order anyone else to do, acts that fail her morality check. And apparently waterboarding fails that standard.

When do we get the list of definitions of what does and doesn't qualify?
Or is it like pornography? " I know it when I see it. "

do you actually beilieve she wont waterboard?
come now after the first the rest are free.

 

[BugI02]

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Straightforward, simple. Right?

I get your reservations, Kut. I just don't think we'll win the hearts and minds of the current jihadi enemy by applying our standards to them.

American citizens who ascribe to the beliefs of our enemy to the point that they no longer abide by nor defend the standards put forth in the constitution are worthy candidates to have their citizenship stripped and to be placed in the category of enemy combatant. The high moral standards expressed by the founders is admirable. Not sure it's defensibly functional in fighting Islamic terror.

I'm also not sure why we're currently debating Rambone's 2011 poll. The current CIA directoral candidate had said she won't do, or order anyone else to do, acts that fail her morality check. And apparently waterboarding fails that standard.

When do we get the list of definitions of what does and doesn't qualify?
Or is it like pornography? " I know it when I see it. "

I think how we acted at the close of WWII is the gold standard, here. Despite the horrific things we knew the Nazis had done, we did not torture them and provided them with a fair trial. And then we hung them

In the case of terrorists, I also support the WWII solution; total unconditional war against them and the countries that harbor them until they are wiped out and those countries reduced to rubble. Then rebuild what we want from the debris

I believe Carthage never troubled the Romans again after The Punic Wars

 

[BugI02]

I totally understand what you're getting at too, but I think having the moral highroad is a good thing, and should be maintained. I don't like the idea of sacrificing who we are, and who we have always been, because the other side doesn't observe the same.

But I thought we have always been racists and oppressors (at least according to some)?

 

[Leadeye]

I think how we acted at the close of WWII is the gold standard, here. Despite the horrific things we knew the Nazis had done, we did not torture them and provided them with a fair trial. And then we hung them

In the case of terrorists, I also support the WWII solution; total unconditional war against them and the countries that harbor them until they are wiped out and those countries reduced to rubble. Then rebuild what we want from the debris

I believe Carthage never troubled the Romans again after The Punic Wars

True, would rep if I could.

Today I'm inclined to focus the war on leadership.

 

[Kutnupe14]

True, would rep if I could.

Today I'm inclined to focus the war on leadership.

You think the Nazi got a fair trial? Interesting. Despite all the horrible things they did, and the deaths they most certainly deserved, Nuremburg was mostly a show trial. The conclusion wasn't ever going to be anything but where it ended.

 

[patience0830]

do you actually beilieve she wont waterboard?
come now after the first the rest are free.

Actually, I kinda hope she will. With some discretion, of course.

 

[Leadeye]

You think the Nazi got a fair trial? Interesting. Despite all the horrible things they did, and the deaths they most certainly deserved, Nuremburg was mostly a show trial. The conclusion wasn't ever going to be anything but where it ended.

The trial was irrelevant, to me the sad thing was all the people who died and the destruction caused to get the leadership that started the mess into a position where you could make them stop. Today things are different, getting rid of problem leadership should be the focus. Ask yourself how much choice most of the people in the world today have in their leadership. Even in this country the high point of the free world we get progressively fewer good choices. In places like Syria do you get a choice at all?