General safe lock question

[Judamonster]

I just purchased a used high end safe. I am in the process of adapting the interior to better suit my needs. I have never owned a safe before and have a few questions for the more experienced members.

Should I avoid any materials due to their fire resistance? (Would carpet be a bad idea? Should I avoid specific adhesives? Etc.)

Are there any materials that would tend to corrode things inside? (Adhesives, backing, etc)

I have been told if the mechanical lock were to fail, the safe would need to be destroyed to access it. I have a mechanical lock, Should I go with electric? I would think mechanical lock is more reliable. Am I wrong? Can a locksmith access a safe with a failed mechanical lock?

Should the door seal be replaced? Safe is approximately 33 years old.

Do you maintenence (grease) your mechanisms/lock?

Fyi. It is a national security safe with a sargent and greenleaf mechanical lock. I could not afford to replace with this quality level if it were to fail. Any other advice?

Thank You!

 

[snorko]

I have heard many stories about electronic locks failing, never one about mechanical failures.

My safe has an S&L mechanical lock as well. It is +/-25 years old. I have never lubed anything and operations are as smooth as new.

For the interior, I would stay away from anything that will absorb moisture.

 

[Mgderf]

I have heard many stories about electronic locks failing, never one about mechanical failures.

My safe has an S&L mechanical lock as well. It is +/-25 years old. I have never lubed anything and operations are as smooth as new.

For the interior, I would stay away from anything that will absorb moisture.

This is sage advice.
I worked at Schwab safe.
I built my safe from scratch. It has a Sargent & Greenleaf mechanical lock.
It is more than 30 years old and has never been serviced, lubed... Nothing.
I have another safe with an electronic lock, but the safe has a back up key in case of failure of the electronic lock. I keep the back up key in the safe with the mechanical lock.
As far as interior materials to avoid, heed @snorko's advice.

 

[KellyinAvon]

I'll piggyback on the Sargent and Greenleaf bandwagon. Have an S&G mechanical lock on my safe.

S&G had the General Services Administration (provides support for the entire federal government) contract for combos, vault doors, safes (GSA-approved container,) toolkits to change combinations, padlocks for classified storage my entire time in the USAF, probably since Norman Schwarzkopf was a Cadet at West Point. There's a reason for that.

 

[russc2542]

Look at what's in there now: Plywood and artificial fiber cloth/carpet. Neither is particularly fire resistant.

I gave the mechanical lock on my big safe a quick spritz of lube when I got it because it didn't feel the smoothest (which helped) but you generally don't hear of mechanical locks failing save for user error. Electronic locks have a myriad of failure modes that are not just possible but likely. Like dead batteries every year or so. If an electronic lock bricks itself, you gotta break in too... if you didn't, it wouldn't be very safe, would it? Remember multiple means of access (combo + key or electronic + key) means more ways to crack it. You don't need to crack the combo or hack the electronics if you have a lock pick set.

-Don't freewheel the dials (spin them hard and let go so they keep spinning)
-Don't put any pressure on the main lock handle when operating the lock (in fact, make sure you push it to the locked position to take tension off the sear, then let go before entering the combo)
-Don't force it.

 

[ol' poke]

+1 for everything mentioned above. If your safe does not have one already, add a GoldenRod or similar dehumidifier. AC power inside also allows lights to be installed. I've switched the original manual/flourescent lights in mine over to motion-detected LEDs - BIG improvement!

 

[223 Gunner]

I lined my shelves with wax paper, these are the shelves my handguns lye on. My shelves have "carpet", so I put the wax paper as a barrier between the carpet and my handguns. Been this way for years and no issues.

 

[Alamo]

Is your safe a UL fire (as opposed to burglary) rated safe? (And make sure it is UL or a similar rating entity. Manufacturer fire ratings are bogus).

If it is not then you really don’t need to worry about the fire resistance of anything you put into it, it‘s all going to toast if you have a big house fire.

If it is a UL fire rated safe, the rating will be for maintaining a not to exceed internal temperature for a period of time when exposed to a fire of a certain temperature.

For example, maintain internal temp of no more than 350F for one hour when exposed to 1700F, written “350 - 1 HR”.

So don’t put anything in it with an ignition/melting point of 351° or more. Paper would be fine. Photographs and electronic media would not not. Would need 125 - N, where N = whatever length of time you think it would take to put out the fire.

 

[schmart]

My experience is my electronic lock failed at about 15 years. With my engineering background I was able to hack the switches and enter the backup combo (from the manufacturer) and get in..

On my mechanical lock, I screwed up resetting the combo. Since the door was still open I was able to go through the door and manually set the combo.

The electronic lock is certainly more convenient but I don't consider it as long lived or as robust.

Just my opinion...
Rick

 

[Mij]

Safe? What safe? If I had one I’d go with a mechanical lock. I’ve seen electric locks overcome with strong magnets. JMO

 

[CTBay]

All three of my safes are mechanical. Two of them are S&L and one of the S&L’s has a glass relocker. Never a problem. Smooth like butter.

My biggest problem with the residential fire containers with digital locks is there is always a back up key and that lock is super easy to pick. All my safes are rather small but they came out of banks and department stores. Cutting them open would take hours and hours. Moving them takes at least three people and equipment. One of them is so heavy it bows the floor and its only 24” cube.

 

[Angrysauce]

I'll add my
I service and install vaults (amongst other things) for a living. I've drilled my share on mechanical and digital locks open.
Do mech locks fail? Yes. With use combos will drift. Undue roughness like closing the door on extended bolts, pressure on the dial, etc will cause damage. If you're conscious of your use of the lock and aren't operating it everyday, multiple times a day it will last many lifetimes.
Do digital locks fail? Yes. Especially when they're the ****** stock locks on cheaper safes. If you want a digital lock spend the extra money on a nice DormaKaba lock. In my experience they don't fail at a drastically great rate than the mechanical locks. I would get a deadbolt over a swingbolt, they have even fewer issues. The majority of the time I've been able to open a "failed lock" by connecting a new keypad. The locks themselves are robust, but again being rough with membrane buttons is a good way to bust them.

Pictures and a related story for S&G.

FIL bought a old locked out AMSEC for $100. We drilled the lock out around the hard plate and forced the bolt. Welded the hole closed, and put on a LaGard lock that I assembled from locks I removed for work. Assuming you bought it new it's around $250. So for $100 to $350, you get a several thousand dollar safe.
Also a point to take away from this. I was in in around 30 minutes. If you know what you're doing most safes are relatively easy to defeat. Layer your security.

 

[Mgderf]

I'll add my
I service and install vaults (amongst other things) for a living. I've drilled my share on mechanical and digital locks open.
Do mech locks fail? Yes. With use combos will drift. Undue roughness like closing the door on extended bolts, pressure on the dial, etc will cause damage. If you're conscious of your use of the lock and aren't operating it everyday, multiple times a day it will last many lifetimes.
Do digital locks fail? Yes. Especially when they're the ****** stock locks on cheaper safes. If you want a digital lock spend the extra money on a nice DormaKaba lock. In my experience they don't fail at a drastically great rate than the mechanical locks. I would get a deadbolt over a swingbolt, they have even fewer issues. The majority of the time I've been able to open a "failed lock" by connecting a new keypad. The locks themselves are robust, but again being rough with membrane buttons is a good way to bust them.

Pictures and a related story for S&G.

FIL bought a old locked out AMSEC for $100. We drilled the lock out around the hard plate and forced the bolt. Welded the hole closed, and put on a LaGard lock that I assembled from locks I removed for work. Assuming you bought it new it's around $250. So for $100 to $350, you get a several thousand dollar safe.
Also a point to take away from this. I was in in around 30 minutes. If you know what you're doing most safes are relatively easy to defeat. Layer your security.
View attachment 279852 View attachment 279853 View attachment 279854

I worked at Schwab safe for a time.
Long enough to figure out how/where to drill for them.
I was also there long enough to procure a gun size safe that will hold around 25-30 guns comfortably, and a roll-top drop safe like the gas stations use.
Both have S&G mechanical locks and if they fail, I know how to defeat them, including the built-in relockers.

 

[JettaKnight]

I have heard many stories about electronic locks failing, never one about mechanical failures.

My safe has an S&L mechanical lock as well. It is +/-25 years old. I have never lubed anything and operations are as smooth as new.

For the interior, I would stay away from anything that will absorb moisture.

THIS. The worst thing you can do is spin the dial rapidly like you see in the movies. (same goes for revolvers)

I have a solid LaGard, no concerns.



Why do electronic locks have a key override?

 

[Ingomike]

How hard is it to upgrade to mechanical locks from cheap electronic?

 

[Angrysauce]

Why do electronic locks have a key override?

The good ones don't

 

[xwing]

I see a lot of opinions on "cheap" electronic locks... How about Sargent and Greenleaf electronic locks?

 

[indyblue]

When I was shopping for safes, I specifically looked for manual dials, they’re becoming harder to find.

I ended up with a relatively cheap stack on safe, but it does the job. The dial doesn’t free wheel, it has some resistance, so I don’t think that will be a problem for mine.

 

[Angrysauce]

I see a lot of opinions on "cheap" electronic locks... How about Sargent and Greenleaf electronic locks?

S&G, Kaba, LaGard are all generally good. I would get a manually operated deadbolt over a pivot/swing/motorized bolt.
I've had keypads fail on manual locks and gotten lucky changing the keypad. The solenoid can fail, but that is relatively uncommon.
If the motor or solenoid fail on the pivot/swing/motorized you're f'ed

 

[russc2542]

How hard is it to upgrade to mechanical locks from cheap electronic?

Harder than finding a mechanical lock safe to start with.

Going to depend very much on the safe design and skill of the person doing the work. If the manufacturer had an option for either type or put the parts in such a way as the mechanical lock can be installed will be much easier than if they did some proprietary positioning of internal parts.