Four Minneapolis officers fired after death of black man part II

[BigRed]

BLM founder buys 1.4 million dollar home.
I'm sure the various donors will be happy their money was well spent.

That some believe this is anything other than a group of useful idiots fronting for commie scum simply illustrates that stupidity knows no bounds.

 

[T.Lex]

What guarantee did our non-MD officers have that Floyd had definitively passed out as opposed to playing possum in hopes of returning to a position of having resisting a more viable option?

Guarantee? Cops don't get guarantees, other than guarantees for an ill-fitting uniform and bad coffee.

Floyd was cuffed and outnumbered and on the ground. (Not to mention, they were sober.) Chauvin alone could've gotten up without impairing their ability to continue to subdue him, while increasing Floyd's chance of surviving the interaction.

Plus, it would've freed an officer (Chauvin) to help with the "crowd" that was causing such concern.

Yeah, you invited some MMQBing, so there you have it.

 

[nonobaddog]

Floyd was resisting and not listening. The only remaining option available is physical restraint.
Floyd is a big guy and I don't think it would be very smart to give up the positional advantage the officers had. They have probably all been through altercations with suspects before and learned to continue restraint for any suspect that is uncooperative and has already shown resistance.

 

[Kutnupe14]

People can minimize it all they want. Some people die from that amount of Fentanyl even without a 180lb cop kneeling on them. That's reasonable doubt as to the cause of death, regardless what a coroner testified to. Bottom line is, there is reasonable doubt about the cause of death.

Not so fast, Jamil. People don’t just take fentanyl, or any lethal dose of a drug, and fall over and die. Autopsies don’t list “bullets” as the cause of death. They are specific as to exactly what happens to the body that causes death. Obviously those reasons differ from case to case. If it’s indicated the the bodily functions the fentanyl affected was severe enough to cause death, you have an argument. If you don’t, then that’s problematic.

 

[Denny347]

Do they have extensive cardiovascular issues and were they on potentially fatal doses of fentanyl among other drugs?

If others who demonstrate the UoF technique that don't have those outlying factors can come out no worse for wear then those outlying factors cannot be ruled out as a major contributing factor in Floyd's death.

Of course not. Those factors are separate from the lethality of the position itself.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Floyd was resisting and not listening. The only remaining option available is physical restraint.
Floyd is a big guy and I don't think it would be very smart to give up the positional advantage the officers had. They have probably all been through altercations with suspects before and learned to continue restraint for any suspect that is uncooperative and has already shown resistance.

Yeah no. This is supposition. “Big guys” on dope that resist aren’t exactly uncommon in the LE field, and I’ve yet to see 3 guys crouch on a dude for 10 minutes, 3 of which he’s not moving at all.

 

[Kutnupe14]

A couple of my Use of Force friends conducted the same experiment on each other. No worse for wear.

Here’s the issue with that. It’s a controlled environment. Your friends had no reasonable expectation of being harmed during the experiment. No significant change In respiration, heart rate, bp, nor mental anguish. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to draw conclusions about Floyd from.

 

[T.Lex]

Here’s the issue with that. It’s a controlled environment. Your friends had no reasonable expectation of being harmed during the experiment. No significant change In respiration, heart rate, bp, nor mental anguish. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to draw conclusions about Floyd from.

I think the boot off the ground part was important, too.

I hadn't realized that, but it does mean that more of Chauvin's body weight was being applied to Floyd than not.

I think we also need to consider that maybe Chauvin did want to hurt this guy. From what we now know about Chauvin's past, that might've been part of his personality.

 

[JCSR]

Here’s the issue with that. It’s a controlled environment. Your friends had no reasonable expectation of being harmed during the experiment. No significant change In respiration, heart rate, bp, nor mental anguish. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to draw conclusions about Floyd from.

So they weren't on drugs and resisting?

 

[Denny347]

Here’s the issue with that. It’s a controlled environment. Your friends had no reasonable expectation of being harmed during the experiment. No significant change In respiration, heart rate, bp, nor mental anguish. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to draw conclusions about Floyd from.

True but if this was in fact a trained restraint position, that is how they likely trained with it. Their training most likely didn't take into account those factors you brought up. But many people say the mere fact that he was placed in that position as what killed him. I think reality is more complicated. His largest issue is not re-assessing the need for the position. Will that rise to the level of criminality? We will see.

 

[Denny347]

I think the boot off the ground part was important, too.

I hadn't realized that, but it does mean that more of Chauvin's body weight was being applied to Floyd than not.

I think we also need to consider that maybe Chauvin did want to hurt this guy. From what we now know about Chauvin's past, that might've been part of his personality.

This boils down to a question of excessive force or not. In that decision, "the reasonableness inquiry is an objective one; that is, the appropriateness of a use of force is gauged by what is “‘objectively reasonable’ in light of the facts and circumstances confronting” an officer. As such, the officer’s “underlying intent or motivation” is irrelevant." This is a good overview of the legal doctrine as decided by the SCOTUS https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/LSB10516.pdf

 

[T.Lex]

This boils down to a question of excessive force or not. In that decision, "the reasonableness inquiry is an objective one; that is, the appropriateness of a use of force is gauged by what is “‘objectively reasonable’ in light of the facts and circumstances confronting” an officer. As such, the officer’s “underlying intent or motivation” is irrelevant." This is a good overview of the legal doctrine as decided by the SCOTUS https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/LSB10516.pdf

Oh right, in court.

But this is INGO. If we can speculate about Floyd, seems like speculation about Chauvin is in bounds.

And I'm not sure reasonableness is a safe harbor for Chauvin....

 

[Tombs]

The boot being off the ground seems a little pedantic of a criticism.

His body weight could have been distributed into his shin into Floyd's shoulder. We can't go back in time and install pressure sensors.

The trainer already testified that this position and restraint was part of policy, so I believe all of that is moot.

 

[HoughMade]

There seems to be more of this weird belief that there can only be 1 cause for any event.

Where does that come from?

Whether other people do stupid stuff that puts them in harm's way, I am still responsible for my portion of aggravating that harm if, in fact, I did.

The only causation issues here are:

1) Did kneeling on the guy have ANY part in causing the death and,

2) Is it foreseeable that kneeling on a guy like that could cause injury....whether its foreseeable to cause death only matters in 1st degree.

 

[Tombs]

There seems to be more of this weird belief that there can only be 1 cause for any event.

Where does that come from?

Whether other people do stupid stuff that puts them in harm's way, I am still responsible for my portion of aggravating that harm if, in fact, I did.

The only causation issues here are:

1) Did kneeling on the guy have ANY part in causing the death and,

2) Is it foreseeable that kneeling on a guy like that could cause injury....whether its foreseeable to cause death only matters in 1st degree.

But are those questions relevant for Chauvin if the department trained him to do it in such a situation? I'm actually asking, because I don't know.

I would think the department would be on the hook for it in that instance.

 

[JCSR]

From the trail today..........
When asked about damage to Floyd's brain...the coroner just said they saw no signs of blood or oxygen deprivation.

So he didn't suffocate!?

 

[Timjoebillybob]

BLM founder buys 1.4 million dollar home.
I'm sure the various donors will be happy their money was well spent.

1.4 million in LA? So a small 2 bed 1 bath in decent shape on a postage stamp lot? Yeah an exaggeration but.. my sister and bil were living out there for a while and talked about the price of homes, out of curiosity I looked some up. First time I've seen lot size listed by sq ft, and some were smaller than the sq ft of my house. As in a 2000 sq ft lot. And the prices were for what I'm used to outrageous. 800sq ft home, 3-4000 sq ft lot, not the best area and they were asking 400k+

Which the prosecution use of force expert said was not an issue.

Not removing the handcuffs, the physical restraint of having him proned out with them on his back. The one officer asked Chauvin if they should put him on his side and Chauvin told him no, he's staying where he is.

Not so fast, Jamil. People don’t just take fentanyl, or any lethal dose of a drug, and fall over and die. Autopsies don’t list “bullets” as the cause of death. They are specific as to exactly what happens to the body that causes death. Obviously those reasons differ from case to case. If it’s indicated the the bodily functions the fentanyl affected was severe enough to cause death, you have an argument. If you don’t, then that’s problematic.

They don't from the states witnesses, we haven't heard from the defense yet. And the coronor during a meeting with the attorney generals office reportedly said something to the effect of that if he didn't know the circumstances behind it, he would have written it up as an OD.

True but if this was in fact a trained restraint position, that is how they likely trained with it. Their training most likely didn't take into account those factors you brought up. But many people say the mere fact that he was placed in that position as what killed him. I think reality is more complicated. His largest issue is not re-assessing the need for the position. Will that rise to the level of criminality? We will see.

I agree that is probably his largest issue, especially when one of the other officers specifically asked him if they should change Floyd's position.

 

[BugI02]

1.4 million in LA? So a small 2 bed 1 bath in decent shape on a postage stamp lot? Yeah an exaggeration but.. my sister and bil were living out there for a while and talked about the price of homes, out of curiosity I looked some up. First time I've seen lot size listed by sq ft, and some were smaller than the sq ft of my house. As in a 2000 sq ft lot. And the prices were for what I'm used to outrageous. 800sq ft home, 3-4000 sq ft lot, not the best area and they were asking 400k+

So, it's petty theft so it is less reprehensible/corrupt?

 

[BugI02]

From the trail today..........
When asked about damage to Floyd's brain...the coroner just said they saw no signs of blood or oxygen deprivation.

So he didn't suffocate!?

Might be referencing forcible asphyxiation/petechial hemorrhage. If he just stopped breathing due to unconscious/CNS depression those signs would not be evident. It would speak to whether he was struggling to breathe or his brain stem forgot to breathe

 

[actaeon277]

1.4 million in LA? So a small 2 bed 1 bath in decent shape on a postage stamp lot? Yeah an exaggeration but.. my sister and bil were living out there for a while and talked about the price of homes, out of curiosity I looked some up. First time I've seen lot size listed by sq ft, and some were smaller than the sq ft of my house. As in a 2000 sq ft lot. And the prices were for what I'm used to outrageous. 800sq ft home, 3-4000 sq ft lot, not the best area and they were asking 400k+

Then maybe she (the BLM leader) should move somewhere else. So that those funds would be used for better purposes.