Four Minneapolis officers fired after death of black man part II

[KLB]

Could be why they needed to get a green UOF expert from LA to testify.

The doctor said that of 2000 people arrested for DUI (Fent) the average intoxication level was 9.5+ ng/mL, and that there were dozens from that group who tested higher than Floyd. Floyd was a doper right? Why isn’t it plausible that he had an tolerance at least equal to those persons that survived?
Remember, a lot of you guys said Floyd “was going to die anyways,” but that now doesn’t seem to be the case.
And further the doctor today said that a healthy person subject to what Floyd was, would have also died.
One thing I learned today, was that at tone Chauvin didn’t have his foot on the ground when his knee was on the neck. I had thought it was. I looked and sure enough it wasn’t. Chauvin was putting a good amount of weight on Floyd’s neck.

What do you expect at this point in the trial? The prosecution if presenting its case. Things should be looking good for them right now.

 

[KG1]

A couple of my Use of Force friends conducted the same experiment on each other. No worse for wear.

Do they have extensive cardiovascular issues and were they on potentially fatal doses of fentanyl among other drugs?

If others who demonstrate the UoF technique that don't have those outlying factors can come out no worse for wear then those outlying factors cannot be ruled out as a major contributing factor in Floyd's death.

 

[BugI02]

The doctor said that of 2000 people arrested for DUI (Fent) the average intoxication level was 9.5+ ng/mL, and that there were dozens from that group who tested higher than Floyd. Floyd was a doper right? Why isn’t it plausible that he had an tolerance at least equal to those persons that survived?
Remember, a lot of you guys said Floyd “was going to die anyways,” but that now doesn’t seem to be the case.
And further the doctor today said that a healthy person subject to what Floyd was, would have also died.
One thing I learned today, was that at tone Chauvin didn’t have his foot on the ground when his knee was on the neck. I had thought it was. I looked and sure enough it wasn’t. Chauvin was putting a good amount of weight on Floyd’s neck.

IANAD, but I don't believe a user can develop tolerance to a lethal level of a drug. Tolerance can allow them to function better than a non-habituate at elevated levels below lethal dosing, but a lethal level of CNS suppression is just that - lethal. Floyd may have been walking and talking on some level of consciousness (where a non-habituate would have been horizontal) but his brain stem was still forgetting to tell his lungs to breathe

 

[nonobaddog]

The doctor said that of 2000 people arrested for DUI (Fent) the average intoxication level was 9.5+ ng/mL, and that there were dozens from that group who tested higher than Floyd. Floyd was a doper right? Why isn’t it plausible that he had an tolerance at least equal to those persons that survived?
Remember, a lot of you guys said Floyd “was going to die anyways,” but that now doesn’t seem to be the case.
And further the doctor today said that a healthy person subject to what Floyd was, would have also died.
One thing I learned today, was that at tone Chauvin didn’t have his foot on the ground when his knee was on the neck. I had thought it was. I looked and sure enough it wasn’t. Chauvin was putting a good amount of weight on Floyd’s neck.

Everything this guy says is doubtful and needs to be checked for lies as well as omissions of important facts. Hopefully they will do that in the court. Everything I find points to this being quite a bit less than factual.

 

[Kutnupe14]

IANAD, but I don't believe a user can develop tolerance to a lethal level of a drug. Tolerance can allow them to function better than a non-habituate at elevated levels below lethal dosing, but a lethal level of CNS suppression is just that - lethal. Floyd may have been walking and talking on some level of consciousness (where a non-habituate would have been horizontal) but his brain stem was still forgetting to tell his lungs to breathe

I don't know if you're playing the "technical" game, or not, so I'll address it like you were. If you have a lethal level of a drug in your system, then yeah, you're always going to be dead. Now, it is possible to develop a tolerance for a drug that at certain levels would be lethal. Think alcohol for instance.

 

[BugI02]

I don't know if you're playing the "technical" game, or not, so I'll address it like you were. If you have a lethal level of a drug in your system, then yeah, you're always going to be dead. Now, it is possible to develop a tolerance for a drug that at certain levels would be lethal. Think alcohol for instance.

That's what I am addressing. Even for ethyl alcohol, lethal levels are lethal. Although some may have less tolerance than an experienced user and succumb unexpectedly on a lower dose, there is a level at which no one survives without massive intervention - think life support

The reason addicts die is often related to tolerance, in that the dose they need to get high begins to rub up against the dose needed to take a dirt nap. I am not aware of that 'finish' line ever moving

 

[nonobaddog]

Drugs have differences. You can take a fatal level dose of opioids and live through it if you counteract it with naloxone. This is how some of these people with big numbers survive - lots of naloxone.

People that get fentanyl DUIs are typically found unresponsive at the crash scene and drugs and alcohol are immediately suspected. Sometimes they are able to get naloxone fast enough to save their life.
Good luck finding something that counteracts alcohol.

 

[KLB]

The doctor said that of 2000 people arrested for DUI (Fent) the average intoxication level was 9.5+ ng/mL, and that there were dozens from that group who tested higher than Floyd. Floyd was a doper right? Why isn’t it plausible that he had an tolerance at least equal to those persons that survived?
Remember, a lot of you guys said Floyd “was going to die anyways,” but that now doesn’t seem to be the case.
And further the doctor today said that a healthy person subject to what Floyd was, would have also died.
One thing I learned today, was that at tone Chauvin didn’t have his foot on the ground when his knee was on the neck. I had thought it was. I looked and sure enough it wasn’t. Chauvin was putting a good amount of weight on Floyd’s neck.

Averages are generally useless. Here is the chart that was shown. Almost 75% of those people had levels lower than Floyds. It looks like the median would be around 5 some where.

As for the knee, did you miss where it wasn't on his neck, but on his "neck area"?

 

[T.Lex]

There are "always lethal" levels of drugs. That's a hard stop.

But, under that, is a gray area of "sometimes lethal." That's why even the lethal fentanyl dosage (and other drugs) is expressed as a range.

Clearly, 49ng is not "always lethal" because someone didn't expire until they hit 50. But, sometimes 2ng can be lethal. So, 11ng is clearly somewhere in the middle. Can be lethal, but isn't always.

I happen to know of someone who ingested small amounts of iocaine powder to build up a tolerance to what would otherwise be a lethal dose. Came in very handy.

Personally, I think it is more about genetics and how every individual metabolizes things a little differently. Combine that with some tolerance-building at the functional level and you get a wide variety of reactions to high doses of drugs that people shouldn't be doing in the first place.

[BTW, did anyone know that there's a "prescription" dosage of meth? Say what? Prescription meth? I had no idea!]

 

[nonobaddog]

Averages are generally useless. Here is the chart that was shown. Almost 75% of those people had levels lower than Floyds. It looks like the median would be around 5 some where.

As for the knee, did you miss where it wasn't on his neck, but on his "neck area"?

How many of these people received naloxone?
I saw one study where exactly half of the fentanyl DUI recipients received naloxone. Some of them would have died without it.
Some of these charts show big numbers and say they lived but that is not the whole truth.

 

[Alamo]

Branca does a dissection of the prosecution witnesses's drug level testimoney

Chauvin Trial Day 9 Wrap-Up: Prosecution Has A Not-Bad Day With Medical Experts – Law of Self Defense

 

[T.Lex]

How many of these people received naloxone?
I saw one study where exactly half of the fentanyl DUI recipients received naloxone. Some of them would have died without it.
Some of these charts show big numbers and say they lived but that is not the whole truth.

So this brings me back to the point where it kinda doesn't matter for purposes of these charges.

How do you suspect someone is ODing on fentanyl? Being unconscious is one of the primary ways. Unconscious people don't resist, except by just lying there.

If at some point while being restrained, Floyd was unconscious because of fentanyl, that can still support a conviction of Chauvin.

 

[nonobaddog]

So this brings me back to the point where it kinda doesn't matter for purposes of these charges.

How do you suspect someone is ODing on fentanyl? Being unconscious is one of the primary ways. Unconscious people don't resist, except by just lying there.

If at some point while being restrained, Floyd was unconscious because of fentanyl, that can still support a conviction of Chauvin.

I agree.
I only posted the naloxone information because some people try to minimize Floyd's drug levels by saying other people had high levels and lived, but they leave out the fact that the only reason some of them lived is because they were treated and their high levels would have otherwise killed them.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

IANAD, but I don't believe a user can develop tolerance to a lethal level of a drug. Tolerance can allow them to function better than a non-habituate at elevated levels below lethal dosing, but a lethal level of CNS suppression is just that - lethal. Floyd may have been walking and talking on some level of consciousness (where a non-habituate would have been horizontal) but his brain stem was still forgetting to tell his lungs to breathe

I believe they can, I'll explain below.

That's what I am addressing. Even for ethyl alcohol, lethal levels are lethal. Although some may have less tolerance than an experienced user and succumb unexpectedly on a lower dose, there is a level at which no one survives without massive intervention - think life support

The reason addicts die is often related to tolerance, in that the dose they need to get high begins to rub up against the dose needed to take a dirt nap. I am not aware of that 'finish' line ever moving

Oh yes I'm sure there is a level at which no one survives ethyl alcohol. Replace 25% of their blood with everclear and I'm sure there isn't a person on this planet that would survive. But I've known people who were walking and talking with a .6 BAC yes .6 not .06. At .51 it's considered high possibility of death. I'm sure if when they had first started drinking that .6 BAC would have killed them if they we're even able to get that high.

And yes I agree that OD's are often related to tolerance. But that doesn't negate being able to increase tolerance of a lethal dose. Just that their tolerance to the effects built faster/higher than their tolerance to a lethal dose.

Personally, I think it is more about genetics and how every individual metabolizes things a little differently. Combine that with some tolerance-building at the functional level and you get a wide variety of reactions to high doses of drugs that people shouldn't be doing in the first place.

[BTW, did anyone know that there's a "prescription" dosage of meth? Say what? Prescription meth? I had no idea!]

Agreed, and yes I know there is still prescription meth, iirc it's mainly used for adhd with a little used for narcolepsy.

 

[jamil]

I don't know if you're playing the "technical" game, or not, so I'll address it like you were. If you have a lethal level of a drug in your system, then yeah, you're always going to be dead. Now, it is possible to develop a tolerance for a drug that at certain levels would be lethal. Think alcohol for instance.

If you're going to apply the "it's possible" standard, that works for reasonable doubt. In other words, it doesn't work on the side of the prosecution. They have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that 1) Chauvin "assaulted" Floyd, knew that he was assaulting Floyd, and that the assault caused Floyd's death. Or 2) Chauvin acted in a way that is eminently dangerous to others, with a depraved mind, without regard for human life. Or 3) engaging in reckless behavior that causes death.

For the defense, all they have to do is establish that the drugs in his system could have caused the death, regardless of the hold Chauvin used. The video of Floyd saying he couldn't breathe, felt like he was being choked, while IN the squad car with no one near his neck or chest, is some powerful testimony about the cause of death. He was obviously in some respiratory distress before they held him on the ground.

I don't think the state has a good case on the first two because they require a knowledge of Chauvin's state of mind that hasn't been established throughout the trial. Certainly noting about state of mind proven beyond reasonable doubt, that he knew he was assaulting Floyd, or that Chauvin had acted with a depraved mind. Is hold may not have been textbook. But it appears that he was trained to use that kind of hold in a situation like that.

The third charge could stick if any can stick. Not that the Jury could actually be impartial on this case. After hearing the testimony of the woke off-duty EMT, her beliefs about it are obviously ideologically contrived. I'm not sure if anyone has an open mind about this that ideology doesn't impact at least a little. But, regardless I think it's possible that the third charge of 2nd degree manslaughter could be appropriate.

But first, I doubt Floyd would be dead if he didn't have lethal doses of Fentanyl/Meth in him. So the drugs had to contribute. Possibly Chauvin's knee contributed as well, but that is less certain. The part that makes me think Chauvin is at least a little responsible for Floyd's death is that he continued well after Floyd became unresponsive. I mean at some point, why would he not check on Floyd? Surely he's had some training to have known that Floyd was acting like he was on drugs. I think that was a level of negligence. The doubt I have is that the knee was really the cause of death.

 

[Jaybird1980]

So this brings me back to the point where it kinda doesn't matter for purposes of these charges.

How do you suspect someone is ODing on fentanyl? Being unconscious is one of the primary ways. Unconscious people don't resist, except by just lying there.

If at some point while being restrained, Floyd was unconscious because of fentanyl, that can still support a conviction of Chauvin.

I'm not getting this part. Are you saying someone unconscious from an OD shouldn't be in restraints?

I believe the use of force instructor disagreed with that. I would say they should have started life saving measures, but I'm unsure of what all they would have to do to meet that qualification. Maybe calling for EMTs meets the requirement.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I agree.
I only posted the naloxone information because some people try to minimize Floyd's drug levels by saying other people had high levels and lived, but they leave out the fact that the only reason some of them lived is because they were treated and their high levels would have otherwise killed them.

Those people are considered experts in their field, and weren't contradicted, by the defense, with the argument you're presenting. If your argument held weight, why wasn't it brought up?

 

[KLB]

Those people are considered experts in their field, and weren't contradicted, by the defense, with the argument you're presenting. If your argument held weight, why wasn't it brought up?

Because the defense can't argue with the witness?

 

[jamil]

So this brings me back to the point where it kinda doesn't matter for purposes of these charges.

How do you suspect someone is ODing on fentanyl? Being unconscious is one of the primary ways. Unconscious people don't resist, except by just lying there.

If at some point while being restrained, Floyd was unconscious because of fentanyl, that can still support a conviction of Chauvin.

Maybe on the 2nd degree manslaughter. The prosecution has already lost the case on the first two charges if we're all being honest.

 

[jamil]

I agree.
I only posted the naloxone information because some people try to minimize Floyd's drug levels by saying other people had high levels and lived, but they leave out the fact that the only reason some of them lived is because they were treated and their high levels would have otherwise killed them.

People can minimize it all they want. Some people die from that amount of Fentanyl even without a 180lb cop kneeling on them. That's reasonable doubt as to the cause of death, regardless what a coroner testified to. Bottom line is, there is reasonable doubt about the cause of death.