Eric Holcomb pushing for refugee resettlement in Indiana?

[BugI02]

Why that sounds like brilliant immigration reform, what would the bleeders say to this?

They probably wouldn't like it. They seem to like their (e)migrants to be dependent, likely to vote progressive, and of insufficient means to move into their neighborhoods

 

[churchmouse]

Odd, that's how many gain united states citizenship.

They probably wouldn't like it. They seem to like their (e)migrants to be dependent, likely to vote progressive, and of insufficient means to move into their neighborhoods

Yup. If you are isolated from these idiots you have no real world Idea how bad it can be and already is in some areas.

 

[BugI02]

Full disclosure: That pretty much describes me. The neighborhood I selected to live in has high barriers to entry. I wanted my neighbors to be like me; not in skin tone, religion or place of origin but in how to act, maintain their home and keep a short leash on their children until such time as those become responsible in their own right

 

[DadSmith]

Yes we have more jobs than laborers.
Simple fix is to take able body people on welfare off and send them to work, or by making them work for benefits. No job no benefits.

 

[Twangbanger]

Thank you for leaving me out of the "playing nicely" group. I have been especially difficult, haven't I?

First of all, stop being so defensive. I realized that you seemed to be getting the "rough-guff" from others here, and I was trying to draw a distinction between the different tangents of conversation taking place, and create a different level of discourse with you based on intellectual merit rather than attack-tones.

First, I very intentionally did not mention the Chin population when I said that US policy has created refugees...

I realized that, which is precisely why I illustrated their example. They are close to home, with an influx of over 10,000 people in a 10-square mile area in a relatively short period of time. This is also a group which was carefully-chosen by me, because there is absolutely zero US-produced geopolitical justification for allowing them to immigrate here. We did not meddle in their country (unless you consider a photo-op visit from Hillary and Obama to be meddling). And that well-established US tendency to meddle in other regions of the world is the chief moral justification you have provided for why we are obligated to host these immigrants. It specifically does not apply in this case, and that significantly undermines the moral foundation of your opinion, and you need to answer to that. The conditions they are fleeing are exclusively tied to long and deep-seated ethnic resentments and a civil war in their country which the United States had nothing to do with. If we were conducting this conversation as British or Japanese citizens, it would be a very different matter, but that is not the case.

I listed two groups: the Hmong people who were US allies in Vietnam, and the "migrant caravan" from Honduras. Both of those groups are refugees at least in part because of US government actions. I personally think it's a good thing that we accept refugees beyond those which we created, but I agree that position is debatable. What I find not debatable is that we have a debt to people whom we actively harmed.

Second, I can't knowledgeably speak directly to your tax situation, and I don't know why your property taxes went up by 25%. The rate certainly didn't, so there's likely another explanation. Did your property value go up by 25%? In influx of people is likely to boost property values, and that would explain it. Or did the tax bill go up due to a referendum? If that's the case, your tax bill went up because your neighbors voted for it to go up. Are you sure that the population growth is the cause of your bill increase, or is that just an assumption?

Local tax growth here is mostly related to schools, and I attended the meetings scheduled by school district officials to explain why they were asking for more money. It was because of enrollment growth. In addition to creating more classrooms in selected schools across the district, they wanted to create a "kindergarten academy" out of an existing school, to most efficiently address a giant increase in front-end enrollment at the very lowest age of entry into the system. One of my co-workers' wives is a teacher in this kindergarten academy, and the kindergarten enrollment is now approaching 75% Chin Burmese.

Third, you say "free education" as though immigrants don't pay taxes. That's simply not accurate. The sales tax and income tax are the primary funding sources for our state government (which, along with federal funding, pays the majority of education expenses), and immigrants pay those. They also pay property tax either via real estate ownership or via rent payments that cover property tax payments.

My reason for bringing up the point of real estate tax increases and schools, was simply to point out that this has not been zero-impact influx to the community. The Chin Burmese were not simply "absorbed" with no cost impact to the surrounding area; existing residents are paying for it. Whether you feel it's morally justified or not, is a different discussion. It cannot be argued that there is no impact. Because there most certainly is, and the school system is just the easiest example to grasp. These people are not simply being absorbed into a "wealthy country" with no impact to those around them.

Fourth, adult immigrants have never assimilated well. It's always been the second and third generation. Prior to WW1, there were over a thousand newspapers in the US published in German. That's why I'm happy the kids are in a public school; it's a big part of how they assimilate.

If you feel like there's an issue I've deflected on or ignored, please point it out, and I will address it directly.

I addressed the foregoing points individually in an attempt to be fair with you, but my overall intention was not to get into a point-for-point, sentence-for-sentence tit for tat type discussion like so many here wish to do. Rather, my objective is to examine the overall "Big Picture" moral justification you are using for refugee resettlement on a large scale. And I have pointed out one large, concrete, local example which undermines your moral justification.

A ten square-mile section of Indianapolis has taken in a quantity of refugees in the last ten years which exceeds the quantity taken by other entire (and usually Blue) states, if the above statistical citations are taken at face value. And the situation they are fleeing has nothing at all to do with US intervention in their local affairs. It's entirely related to the precise sort of "ethnic-craphole" malaise which is prevalent in so many countries of refugees who want to come here, and while we can have empathy for that country's situation, it must be pointed out that the situation is entirely of their own making. While the US is certainly addicted to overseas intervention (a fact which many Trump voters, it should be noted, are attempting to attack head-on), it cannot be used as the excuse and justification for everyone who wants to come here.

Is it your position, then, given the example of Burma, that United States Citizens are morally responsible to take in refugees of every country which had a non-democratic government and/or economic crisis brought on by civil war or ethnic clashes? Because that's an incredibly tall order.

You are in a bit of a position here. You either have to admit that the example of the 13,000 Burmese in South Indy do not fit into your moral justification for refugee resettlement based on inimical US intervention. Or, you must admit that what you are actually advocating is the use of government power to enforce your religious views (rooted in compassion as they may be) upon the rest of the US population. And, that US foreign intervention really has nothing to do with it, and is just a convenient excuse on your part, in certain cases.

If you are truly just a compassionate "no such thing as an illegal human" resettlement advocate, that is a defensible position. However, I think it would be more intellectually honest for you to simply man-up and admit that fact, without making excuses based on past US adventures.

 

[CampingJosh]

Odd, that's how many gain united states citizenship.

Like most of the people responding to this thread?

I don't think that people who were born in the U.S. are inherently more deserving of charity than people born elsewhere are deserving of a green card and an opportunity to work.

Yes, illegal aliens are here to take.. and take... and take... etc.
Illegal Aliens Costs Taxpayers $116 Billion Annually – Californians, Texans, Floridians Pay the Most

https://tennesseestar.com/2019/08/2...-californians-texans-floridians-pay-the-most/

You've moved the goalposts. The conversation was about all immigrants; now you're talking about the illegal immigrants. I have not said the first word in support of illegal immigrants.

It's disingenuous to use data related to illegal immigrants to attempt to say that all immigration should be stopped.

You give proper acknowledgement of the need to respect the cultures that already exist here and I’ll give proper acknowledgement of the benefits of immigration. It’s not just all of one thing, or all of another thing. It’s what’s true about all things.

Incidentally, the benefits, at least a lot of them, if we’re just talking about the benefits of immigration, can be achieved through more ****ing and not aborting (preferable by married couples) and re-adopting personal responsibility as a primary moral taught to children in the US.

What do I need to say to acknowledge the cultures that already exist here? I've already said that immigrants should be set up in a situation that leads to assimilation.

I have friends (U.S. citizens) who live and work in Austria. They are required to take German classes. I think that's a good requirement. I haven't argued that our culture should be replaced. If you think that I have, you're projecting someone else's views onto me.

Yes, an increased birth rate among current US citizens could achieve many of the benefits that immigration brings. But young people don't want to have more children, and so we outsource it. That's what wealthy countries do with all kinds of things that the citizenry doesn't want to do themselves.

Yes, indeed! Immigrants who have been vetted and who are unlikely to be a drain on resources and score highly on a scale (much like Canada uses) predicated on what they have to offer the US (in terms of skills and education), not what we have to offer them

The days of just needing warm bodies to settle the interior are long over. My city is developing its own Little Mogadishu, and that area's murder/crime rate is ramping up

Bug, we're not far off here.

I'm not arguing in favor of open borders. But I am arguing against the idea that the U.S. should have sealed borders.

Well i have a solution. Because I believe in natural selection. I dont believe in blanket welfare. We have created a system that rewards people to fail. Most people will never climb up when you do that and the government knows it. We have intentionally created generations with their hands out. Thats all they know. We have created generations of excuse makers and blamers. Thats all they know.
Then we pay all of them to breed like rats, and we pay for their medical care and food. The cycle continues until we collapse.

What makes this specific to immigrants? Overall, first and second generation immigrants use less welfare per capita than Americans of established families (third generation and beyond).

 

[Ggreen]

I've volunteered with the ngo nonprofit that handles our refugees. There is no way I could ethically fight against bringing them here. We have higher crime rates from citizens than from refugees, so that's not even a viable argument. They are funded initially from un grant money then by donations not your tax dollars. Children, mothers, babies, grandmother's... Men seem to get delayed and often separated for extended periods. They work hard, they go to classes on American culture, they run restaurants that expand our palette, they are good people who have lived through atrocities that soft skinned bigots can't stomach even reading about.

If there is a higher power, how will you explain turning them away?

 

[Trigger Time]

Like most of the people responding to this thread?

I don't think that people who were born in the U.S. are inherently more deserving of charity than people born elsewhere are deserving of a green card and an opportunity to work.



You've moved the goalposts. The conversation was about all immigrants; now you're talking about the illegal immigrants. I have not said the first word in support of illegal immigrants.

It's disingenuous to use data related to illegal immigrants to attempt to say that all immigration should be stopped.



What do I need to say to acknowledge the cultures that already exist here? I've already said that immigrants should be set up in a situation that leads to assimilation.

I have friends (U.S. citizens) who live and work in Austria. They are required to take German classes. I think that's a good requirement. I haven't argued that our culture should be replaced. If you think that I have, you're projecting someone else's views onto me.

Yes, an increased birth rate among current US citizens could achieve many of the benefits that immigration brings. But young people don't want to have more children, and so we outsource it. That's what wealthy countries do with all kinds of things that the citizenry doesn't want to do themselves.



Bug, we're not far off here.

I'm not arguing in favor of open borders. But I am arguing against the idea that the U.S. should have sealed borders.



What makes this specific to immigrants? Overall, first and second generation immigrants use less welfare per capita than Americans of established families (third generation and beyond).

Well the imigrants dont belong here. If im FORCED as a slave by my government to take care of people id much rather it be americans citizens by natural birth right (not anchor babies), and not illegals who should never be here in the first place. Also no imigrants who even came here legaly but then instantly become hooked on the titay

 

[Ggreen]

Well the imigrants dont belong here. If im FORCED as a slave by my government to take care of people id much rather it be americans citizens by natural birth right (not anchor babies), and not illegals who should never be here in the first place. Also no imigrants who even came here legaly but then instantly become hooked on the titay

Refugees do not get public aid.

 

[churchmouse]

I've volunteered with the ngo nonprofit that handles our refugees. There is no way I could ethically fight against bringing them here. We have higher crime rates from citizens than from refugees, so that's not even a viable argument. They are funded initially from un grant money then by donations not your tax dollars. Children, mothers, babies, grandmother's... Men seem to get delayed and often separated for extended periods. They work hard, they go to classes on American culture, they run restaurants that expand our palette, they are good people who have lived through atrocities that soft skinned bigots can't stomach even reading about.

If there is a higher power, how will you explain turning them away?

Do you live among them.....?????

I have many reasons.

 

[churchmouse]

Refugees do not get public aid.

Again, they should be interred. Educated and assimilated. Not thrust out among us. I am tired of their crap.

 

[Ggreen]

Again, they should be interred. Educated and assimilated. Not thrust out among us. I am tired of their crap.

What have they done to you? It's very un-American to think we should be an assimilated society. I would live among them.

 

[churchmouse]

What have they done to you? It's very un-American to think we should be an assimilated society. I would live among them.

But you do not. They are not assimilating as to the basic rules of the road. How to actually use a line. Any line. Many are rude and aggressive. They create gangs and on and on and on and on. Do not think I am a basically bad person. I am not. But If I move into your area I will do what I can to fit in with the living conditions/life styles and mannerisms of the "Natives". This is assimilating. Speaking the language is assimilating. How to actually use a parking lot is assimilating. Taking care of the property is assimilating. Not breeding farm animals in the back yard is assimilating. Not bringing rats and roaches with them is again.....assimilating. Not walking down the sidewalk and becoming aggressive with my wife and grown daughter is another big one for me. Not walking down the side walk at 2:30 am drunk on their ass and deciding to take a in front of the daughters house next door (yes we had it on security) would be something to consider.

I can go on and on.

Yes we need to be an assimilated society. The basic rules /we are expected to follow is a good start.

 

[Ggreen]

But you do not. They are not assimilating as to the basic rules of the road. How to actually use a line. Any line. Many are rude and aggressive. They create gangs and on and on and on and on. Do not think I am a basically bad person. I am not. But If I move into your area I will do what I can to fit in with the living conditions/life styles and mannerisms of the "Natives". This is assimilating. Speaking the language is assimilating. How to actually use a parking lot is assimilating. Taking care of the property is assimilating. Not breeding farm animals in the back yard is assimilating. Not bringing rats and roaches with them is again.....assimilating. Not walking down the sidewalk and becoming aggressive with my wife and grown daughter is another big one for me. Not walking down the side walk at 2:30 am drunk on their ass and deciding to take a in front of the daughters house next door (yes we had it on security) would be something to consider.

I can go on and on.

Yes we need to be an assimilated society. The basic rules /we are expected to follow is a good start.

You realize you can find every bit of what you described in any backwoods white dominate American wall mart right? For goodness sakes there are active branches of the kkk in my home town. We fear anything different language, skin tone, and religion are the most widely feared. The stories our local Refugees have would break your heart. Most are afraid and often targets of extortion and exploitation by "natural born Americans.

I think most people are good, but ignorant.

 

[churchmouse]

You realize you can find every bit of what you described in any backwoods white dominate American wall mart right? For goodness sakes there are active branches of the kkk in my home town. We fear anything different language, skin tone, and religion are the most widely feared. The stories our local Refugees have would break your heart. Most are afraid and often targets of extortion and exploitation by "natural born Americans.

I think most people are good, but ignorant.

Your arguments can be made but are not in line with what is actually happening.
I grew up in a KKK family. You would never know it from the curb or even hanging out with them. Actually I did not even really know until later in life. I had suspicions but no facts. And no I did not take on the ways of the bed sheet wearing dip noodles in my life. I rarely if ever speak with them.

And brother I am not ignorant so store that OK. You have no idea.

We had a good area here. Not mainly white either so drop that argument as it will not fly. Not here.
I am speaking from personal experiences as you seem to be ignoring. I will argue the downsides of this all day every day. And there are many.
They have over ran the local emergency room we used and it has shut down from the abuse.

That you are helping them out is a good thing and I applaud you. Gods work if you see it that way.

We are fed up with all of this. It has directly impacted our lives and we are sick of it.
We could care less wo or what you are. What color especially so drop the white references please. My SIL is black and one of the nicest people I know. My G-Kids are mixed and just beautiful. This has NADA to do with skin color. NADA.

What it is about is this was our area. It was running pretty well. Now its not. That's what this is about.

Immigrants or refugees they need to step up and learn how we live here. Pretty simple actually.

 

[Ggreen]

Immigrants or refugees they need to step up and learn how we live here. Pretty simple actually.

Sounds like communism. And if you're standing up for the kkk in any by saying"you wouldn't know it from the street" somehow justifying their existence over any other group of thugs... I'm very sad for you.

 

[Twangbanger]

Refugees do not get public aid.

This is objectively false.

A perfunctory review of the Federal HHS website reveals the following (this only refers to Federal services):

"...From the date of arrival, the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) at HHS provides short-term cash and medical assistance to new arrivals, as well as case management services, English as a Foreign Language classes, and job readiness and employment services – all designed to facilitate refugees’ successful transition in the U.S., and help them to attain self-sufficiency..."

"...ORR supports additional programs to serve all eligible populations beyond the first eight months post-arrival, including micro-enterprise development, ethnic community self help, agricultural partnerships, and services for survivors of torture..."

"...ORR provides funding and services to states, resettlement agencies and many non-profit community based entities to facilitate the resettlement of newly arriving refugees..."​

​

​

​

 

[Vigilant]

Refugees do not get public aid.

If that’s the case, why do they need help obtaining public aid?


https://www.wthr.com/article/burmese-refugees-want-help-getting-aid

Or why did the governor have to backtrack on blocking state aid to refugees?

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...-syrian-refugee-family-indianapolis/76971036/

Who pays for all this screening?

https://www.allencountyhealth.com/get-tested/other-screening-services/

Thats just a few.

 

[Jludo]

This is objectively false.

A perfunctory review of the Federal HHS website reveals the following (this only refers to Federal services):

"...From the date of arrival, the ​

Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR)

at HHS provides short-term cash and medical assistance to new arrivals, as well as case management services, English as a Foreign Language classes, and job readiness and employment services – all designed to facilitate refugees’ successful transition in the U.S., and help them to attain self-sufficiency..."

"...ORR supports additional programs to serve ​

all eligible populations

beyond the first eight months post-arrival, including micro-enterprise development, ethnic community self help, agricultural partnerships, and services for survivors of torture..."

"...ORR provides funding and services to states, resettlement agencies and many non-profit community based entities to facilitate the resettlement of newly arriving refugees. For more information on how to help refugees in your community, please reach out to ​

local organizations in your state

. ORR does not directly accept any donations or provide housing. However, we encourage you to contact a local resettlement agency if you would like to assist or volunteer..."​

[SUB][/SUB]​

​

[SUB][/SUB]​

Are we not doing enough to assimilate refugees or should we not be spending any money on refugees?

 

[Jludo]

If that’s the case, why do they need help obtaining public aid?


https://www.wthr.com/article/burmese-refugees-want-help-getting-aid

They cant figure out how to get resettlement aid but can figure out how to get an audience with US senate staffers?