Educate me on water softeners

[mrjarrell]

one more question. You said you have a dedicated iron filter. got a link to something like that? I am pushing it on space that I have dedicated to this, but would like to check that out. I doubt I would spring for it right now right off the bat, but would go with the current game plan and if we end up w/ rusty water beyond what the wife would consider acceptable, I would at least like to know what the expansion of the system would look like.

My iron filter looks a lot like this Fleck. Different controls, but the tank is dead on.
Fleck 7000 (WST-BIRM7054) 1.5 CF TIme Clock Birm 10x54 Tank - Iron & Manganese, Hydrogen Sulfide Removal

My whole system (two tanks and a salt container) doesn't take up too much room. They have a lifespan of about 10 years or so, depending on how bad your iron is. I'm expecting to replace the tank in that time frame. We went with the chemical free iron filter, because I didn't like the idea of taking up extra room and having to deal with potentially bad chemicals and mixing and all that jazz. The one we got from Aquasystems is working great, so far.

 

[mrjarrell]

How does the bleach keep the iron from the casing under control? You would think they would have invented some polymer well casing by now that would be easier to sanitize, cheaper, and longer lasting.

As far as I know bleach does nothing for iron. Some folks do use it to keep the sulfur smell down that's caused by bacteria that feed on the dissolved iron. If you have iron in your water your days of using bleach as a cleaner or in laundry are over. Bleach fixes iron stains to surfaces and clothes. You can still use it on table surfaces and the like, but Oxyclean and similar products will have to take their place. If you don't want steel gray toilet bowls ditch the bleach cleaners are the like.

 

[IndyGunworks]

So anything besides hard surface disinfenctant we need to be using an oxyclean type stuff? Does that do a decent job keeping the whites white?

With the system I posted above having the resin media specific to iron removal would I really need a second tank?

Also why would you replace your second tank all together anyways? why not just replace the media that's inside?

At what iron level should I seriously consider adding a dedicated iron remover? Is there anything with the layout I need to specifically plan for when adding the previously posted softener that way I am set up to add a dedicated iron filter should the need arise.

At what level of iron is using bleach in laundry out of the question? Or is this something I should just wait and run a load of undershirts to see if they turn grey?

 

[mrjarrell]

So anything besides hard surface disinfenctant we need to be using an oxyclean type stuff? Does that do a decent job keeping the whites white?

With the system I posted above having the resin media specific to iron removal would I really need a second tank?

Also why would you replace your second tank all together anyways? why not just replace the media that's inside?

At what iron level should I seriously consider adding a dedicated iron remover? Is there anything with the layout I need to specifically plan for when adding the previously posted softener that way I am set up to add a dedicated iron filter should the need arise.

At what level of iron is using bleach in laundry out of the question? Or is this something I should just wait and run a load of undershirts to see if they turn grey?

Yeah, Oxyclean works pretty well. I have no complaints with it. Also works well to clean out carboys and kegs, too.

I don't know that you'd need a second tank, only time will tell. It's all going to depend on how much iron you have in your water. I have a crap ton of it, as my whole house filter reminds me all the time.
My iron filter will get replaced due to it's design. It's shaped like the one I posted above so I suppose you can't really replace the media easily. It's meant to be modular and replaced.
I don't know what iron level sets off the need for a dedicated iron filter. I just know mine was way high and we had rusty water. Now it's all clear and the water is nice and clean. Have it tested by a water company to give you the levels. I watched them test mine twice and they were basically flabbergasted the levels we so high.
You could run a few loads of whites to see, but you might kill them if you've got really high levels or rust. Almost any level of iron will cause staining with bleach over time. Definitely avoid it in toilets, sinks and tubs. I use acid based cleaners like The Works on mine. Does a great job of removing everything. Not sure that bleach is that great for your septic anyway, you want plenty of bugs and stuff growing in there and eating everything. Don't forget the monthly RidX. LOL.

As an aside, if you have iron you'll need to change your sunblocks to zinc oxide based. Lots of the usual sunblocks have a chemical in them that, when combined with iron, stains the crap out of your clothes. The spray on sunblocks are the worst. We lost more than a few shirts and stuff before we figured out what was causing it. Neutrogena Sensitive skin works great and leaves your clothes stain free.

 

[IndyGunworks]

I heard ridx was a joke and not nessesary? is that what the LOL was about?

How would bleach hurt the septic, but an acid based cleaner not?

I have heard that cleaning with just regular distilled vinegar works pretty good on rust and calcium.

Any other tips and tricks while your on it? I think I will pull the trigger on this stuff Monday if amazon or someone else offers a cyber Monday deal. If not I will just shop around for the best price on the same equipment.

 

[mrjarrell]

I've had my septic guy say to use it, so I'll take him at his word. Adding more bugs on a monthly basis is pretty cheap, compared to putting in a new system. The acid based cleaners dilute out real fast and will just change the ph a bit, if any. They're actually pretty mild. Bleach kills some of your bugs, if you're using it regularly. I've used vinegar in coffee makers and the like and it works good. Never have used it for toilets or anything like that. It might work. I know the Works stuff (I like the thick version) removes soap scum, rust, hard water stains and iron stains pretty well, so I stick with it.

Monday might be a good day to save a few bucks on those, if they put them on sale. Might also call around on Saturday to local small businesses. It is Small Business Saturday and some may have a deal or two on things for you.

 

[indyjohn]

How would bleach hurt the septic, but an acid based cleaner not?

Same reason a prepper adds it to their drinking water. It specifically kills bacteria, which you want plenty of in your septic system.

I believe the acidic bowl cleaner isn't quite as effective? I'll go look.

Zep Acidic Toilet Bowl Cleaner HCl is in the 10-15% range. The pH would be 0-1. (This is the one I use and it works very well. I have limestone water).
Clorox Bleach has no HCl and the pH is 12.6

 

[Huntinfool]

PM sent

 

[IndyGunworks]

PM sent

Have not received one?

 

[gunworks321]

this seems promising

Fleck 5600SXT 48, 000 grain water softener digitial sxt metered whole house system - Faucet Stems - Amazon.com

Bought this exact one two months ago. Go to USwatersystems.com. Lots cheaper than Amazon and free shipping. Very easy to install.

Edit: My bad, this is the one I bought; http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/Fleck_5600SXT_Meter_48000_p/f-r48-56sxt.htm

I don't have iron or well water so YMMV.

 

[IndyGunworks]

Bought this exact one two months ago. Go to USwatersystems.com. Lots cheaper than Amazon and free shipping. Very easy to install.

they do have some pretty good bundle prices, but only one fleck softener, which is not any of the ones I have looked at. Nor do any of their stuff specify the resin material being the finer stuff designed for iron. I may give them a call tomorrow though as their bundled prices seem very appealing.

 

[gunworks321]

they do have some pretty good bundle prices, but only one fleck softener, which is not any of the ones I have looked at. Nor do any of their stuff specify the resin material being the finer stuff designed for iron. I may give them a call tomorrow though as their bundled prices seem very appealing.

Yea, sorry, different site as mentioned above. This place had the water test kits that I purchased. I love our Fleck system.

 

[IndyGunworks]

they do have a fleck, but don't offer their bundled deals with it. It doesn't say anything about iron specific media, and its 200 dollars more for the same grain capacity as the other that I listed.


anybody know if the flecks use the upflow technology for back flushing?

 

[Leadeye]

How does the bleach keep the iron from the casing under control? You would think they would have invented some polymer well casing by now that would be easier to sanitize, cheaper, and longer lasting.

You get a brown slime/stain from bacteria that work on the iron casing. I've heard that enough of it can plug things up, but never experienced it.

 

[WebSnyper]

Well, having the water tested would be a big step to getting exactly what you need, but if it's not going to be possible...

We have an Aquasystem's setup that works very well. Not like a Kinetco system, though. Just a standard softener with salt. When we replaced the old one we went all in and got a complete setup. Whole house filter, iron filter, softener and RO system under the sink. Aquasystem's did a great job and the price was pretty good, (not under 1K, though). You could get a softener from them in the price range you're looking for, or add everything else for a bit more. They did a great job installing and even service them on yearly basis, if you wish.

Aqua Systems - Water Softeners Bottled Water Drinking Water

I also have an Aqua Systems unit and had one in the previous house as well. No issues with either one and the current unit is over 8 years old. Aqua Systems told me not to bother having the builder pre-plumb as I was on a basement and they could tie into my pipes for significantly cheaper than the builder would pre-plumb. I don't have iron, but in the previous house (same area) had significant sediment/calcium type of build up in dish washer, etc and that was the main reason for getting the unit. Had an RO from them in the previous home and it had a holding tank and so never had an issue with waiting on RO water. I did not have an RO put in this house, but still would like to. Had it tied into the icemaker on the previous house and the ice cubes were perfectly clear. Reminds me I need to go over to Aqua Systems and check on RO prices.

20" Big Blue Whole House Sediment Removal Water Filter System

So this for the whole house sediment filter, after the pressure tank. from there through the fleck water softener.

and finally for the cooking and drinking, ill add this under the kitchen sink

APEC - Top Tier - Built in USA - Ultra Safe, Premium 5-Stage Reverse Osmosis Drinking Water Filter System (ROES-50) - - Amazon.com

Would that take care of all my filtration needs? Its only about 2-300 over budget, but I set my budgets low to keep me on track. Seems like I would be getting a pretty good bang for the buck. esp if I can plum the fridge ice maker, and my coffee maker into the RO system!

I AM VERY LEARY about the RO stuff... I don't want to wait 4 minutes for a pot to fill up with water so I can boil some noodles. none of the RO systems really list any information about flow rates. they will say UP TO a certain gpm, but wont give a gpm at a certain pressure.

The RO unit I had, came with a holding tank. Can't remember how much it held maybe 3.5 or so gallons (?). It had a separate tap on it and also had my icemaker and fridge plumbed to it. Never had any issues.

 

[PeaShooter]

The grain capacity of a system is how much "hardness and iron" it can absorb before becoming completely exhausted. Hardness is measured in grains/gallon so you would divide your capacity by hardness/gallon to get your potential water capacity before regeneration. The iron in your water would consume 2 grains of capacity for every grain of iron content. So, the more grains of capacity, the more gallons that can be processed before regeneration. The catch is that softeners need to regen about every week or so, regardless of if they are exhausted or not, so you need to plan your capacity in relation to your water hardness/iron content and expected water usage. I would recommend doing a lot of research into water quality before you make any decisions, or consult a water quality expert, like aqua systems. A plumber is not a water quality expert.

Also, ro cartridges are rated in gallons/day, but they are still fairly slow for inline uses. So they are paired with a bladder storage tank to store ro water. The larger rate on the filter relates to faster refills of the storage tank, but it is usually cheaper to get a 2nd or larger storage tank instead of trying to get a faster ro cartridge. You want to size the tank so that it gets completely emptied once or twice a week to help keep the water fresh. Again lots to learn.

As for the bypass, I highly recommend that you get a ball valve plumbed bypass. As stated earlier, the bypass in the softener won't allow for it to be removed for service and still keep your water flowing.

Good luck.

 

[bobbittle]

To properly size a water softener and/or water filtration system you need an accurate water test before planning anything. Guessing gets you nowhere. You also need to base the size of the unit on projected water usage per day.

You'll have to do some sorting but there are plenty of threads about softeners here Plumbing Forum - GardenWeb