Did I commit a Class D Felony - or not?

[melensdad]

OK, no surprise, I have a handgun carry permit. Indiana law allows me to carry a gun onto school property IF I AM DROPPING OFF or PICKING UP my child. The deal is that I must keep the gun in my possession and I must NOT leave the car. FAILURE TO FOLLOW THE LAW results in me committing a Class D Felony, there is no minor charge to plea bargain down to for extenuating circumstance, etc.

So if it is raining and I have an umbrella in my car, but I'm parked 200' from the door because the designated 'drop off/pick up point' is not in front of the door, my daughter has to run in the rain to the entrance.

Or if she has a major project to carry in with her, something like a science fair project, then she cannot get any help from me because I'm stuck in the car.

Today my daughter is home sick. I had to drop off a school assignment that she completed so that meant I had to go into the school. Well the law says I can't drive onto the property with a gun because my daughter is not with me. So I parked on the public street, at least I think I did. I slipped the gun out of my Milt Sparks OWB slide and stowed it under the front carpet. Walked across the street where the school secretary met me (she was outside raising the on the flagpole with a group of kids) and then I returned to the car. The problem is that the school is a church affiliated school, the church/school own property on both sides of the street. So depending on exactly where I parked, and how far off the edge of the road I parked, someone could argue that I was parked on school property. I made a deliberate attempt to park as much on the public roadway as possible to avoid that argument.

What drives me nuts is not that I can't carry a gun into school. I have no real problem with that, but that as a licensed carry holder, why can't I at least be allowed to lock the gun in the car to help my kid into/out of the school, or when I drop off or pick up homework?

I don't know the laws in other states, but this is one area where Indiana law regarding carry is wrong and needs to be changed!

I don't believe I broke the law today, but again, I'm not a judge so I don't know how he interprets the issue of parking on public streets/private property??? I believe I was legally parked on the public roadway, how do I know for sure for next time?

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

If you're parked on the road...you're parked on the road.

Let's say that YOU owned property on either side of a road. You "control" the property, but not the road going through it.

Unless, of course, it's a private drive through... But if the city/county/whatever takes care of it...painting lines...filling holes...plowing...spreading salt... Then it's a public road.

 

[NEOCON]

Tough call. I am facing the same thing this year as my daughter is now attending public school after 6 years of homeschooling. It is almost impossible to follow the laws the way they are written, and still have some sort of convienence seeing that the school is 20 miles away from home.

 

[pierce195]

If its a "public" road owned by the city or county and maintained by them then you are ok. If the road is owned by the church/school you could have some issues depending on the prosecutor of your county.

This is one area that I'm glad I don't have to worry about. Both of my children are in school now and this is one of the laws I have issues about. Protection of yourself and your children to and from school is an important issue in my mind.

 

[melensdad]

It is almost impossible to follow the laws the way they are written

On any normal sunny day I have no problem following the laws. The school has an area set aside for parents to drop off students, we drive in a big "U" pattern onto and off of the school property. The drop off area is roughly 100' from the door. We pull in, follow the pattern, stop at the designated point, and I drive away. My gun is on my hip the whole time so its not a problem. That is legal.

When I pick her up, the whole of the parking area is turned into a staging area. I try to arrive very early so I can get a close spot so she can see my vehicle. She walks out and walks to the car. We drive away.

PROBLEMS arise when she needs help carrying things. Legally I cannot help in any way because I can't leave the car.

ALSO problems arise when she can't see my car because I didn't arrive early enough to get a 'visible' spot near the door. I try to get there about 20 minutes early!!! Its a huge waste of time but I don't have much choice as many of the "moms" arrive early so they can chat with each other.

ALSO problems arise when the school needs me inside. I'm a board member and have meetings in the school, when I have a meeting I drive from home to school unarmed. But sometimes when I am in my car waiting one of the faculty members will need me and I get called into the school. My options are to commit a felony and go into the school, or lie and say I can't because I don't have time (which is tough to do since I'm 20 minutes early!!!), or I can tell them I am carrying a gun and can't go in . . . but that sort of defeats the purpose of concealed carry when you announce you are armed

 

[Sailor]

So the law applies to private schools as well, correct?

 

[melensdad]

So the law applies to private schools as well, correct?

The way I read the law, it applies to all K-thru-12th grade "schools" and makes no legal distinction between public or private.

I believe it may also apply to nursery schools, but since my daughter is beyond that I've not gone back to review the statute.

 

[Bill of Rights]

The way I read the law, it applies to all K-thru-12th grade "schools" and makes no legal distinction between public or private.

I believe it may also apply to nursery schools, but since my daughter is beyond that I've not gone back to review the statute.

Copied from the information that used to be on PDO:
(Citations added)

Places off-limits while carrying
In or On School Property. (IC 35-47-9-2)
On A School Bus. (IC 35-47-9-2)
In or On Property That Is Being Used By A School For A School Function. (IC 35-47-9-2)
Private School (IC 20-9.1-1-3) & (IC 35-41-1-24.7).
Head Start (IC 35-41-1-24.7)
Preschool (IC 35-41-1-24.7).
IC 35-47-9-1 Allows the carry of firearms by persons permitted to
possess and who are transporting a person to or from school or a school
function.
On an Aircraft. (IC 35-47-6-1)
Controlled Access Areas Of An Airport (IC 35-47-6-1.3)
A Riverboat Casino. (68 IAC 1-7-1)
During Annual State Fair (80 IAC 4-4-4 (Must lock in Vehicle.))
Shipping Port (130 IAC 4-1-8) (Controlled by the Indiana Port Commission)
Admin note
68 IAC 1-7-1 (b)(d) This section Covers Firearms and Casinos and states
only LEO's and Security can carry. It also states they must give you a
place to secure your firearm if you wish to come aboard.

Hope this helps!

Blessings,
B

 

[wbjenks]

Nursery or Pre school, church "Sunday School" etc. When one attends a worship service IF there is a church school in the building then one has committed a Felony if armed even with a license. Stupid law!!!! Our prosecutor informed me that their office will charge me if I violate that law. The only exception is to obtain permission from the Board/Superintendent. Like that is going to happen.

 

[SavageEagle]

Technically, if you tell the school staff member that you are armed and cannot legally leave your vehicle, you're not announcing it. Unless you yell 100' across the lot.

This is a law that bothers me too. I too have school age children and our church has a preschool in it so I can't carry to church either. Why should our children be unprotected but our bueacrats have armed guards when they go to a school? How is that right? I remember being in HS and we had a senator (I believe) come talk to us. Had I cared enough to listen I might have remembered his name... But I remember he was escorted onto the property and into the building by armed guards because I thought the pistols they were carrying were soooo big and awesome! Anyway, my point is the same thing we all understand but for some reason those making the laws don't. Why should "important" people be protected but not our youth? And why can't we be armed, but disarm and lock up our vehicles when our children need our help after/before school?

As has been said, if you parked on the street, that is public property and no one can do anything about it. Except maybe a parking ticket. Our school has a road in front of it and there are painted lines where the buses park along the street. But the town maintains that part of the road also, but the lines are put there by the school. So who owns the painted part of the road? The school or the town?

 

[quiggly]

I have always wondered about places like the zoo. There is always a school function there? Since you don't know there is a school group using it as a school function does that make it okay?

Maybe this has been posted but I could not find it anywhere.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Nursery or Pre school, church "Sunday School" etc. When one attends a worship service IF there is a church school in the building then one has committed a Felony if armed even with a license. Stupid law!!!! Our prosecutor informed me that their office will charge me if I violate that law. The only exception is to obtain permission from the Board/Superintendent. Like that is going to happen.

Not entirely true... That prosecutor is a dolt.

Just a "sunday school" isn't grounds for prosecution.

What if they only offer "sunday school" classes for little old ladies?

But if the church has a licensed daycare/preschool/school then yes, big no-no. Even if/when school isn't in session. Unless you receive permission from those who are in charge to act as "security" of sorts.

 

[Dr. Dave]

Mudding the waters

Nursery or Pre school, church "Sunday School" etc. When one attends a worship service IF there is a church school in the building then one has committed a Felony if armed even with a license. Stupid law!!!! Our prosecutor informed me that their office will charge me if I violate that law. The only exception is to obtain permission from the Board/Superintendent. Like that is going to happen.

I like to make things difficult...what if you also happen to be the Pastor or Assistant Pastor?

 

[wbjenks]

I am the Pastor!!!!! "School property" is the issue. A failure to understand what constitutes school property does not create a criminal defense. According to Bryan Ciyou, a specialist on CCW, even an informal type of school could convict a parishioner found carrying a handgun to Sunday church if the church has any type of school. I don't want to be the test case! Hamilton County prosecutor says NO!!!!! I guess I need to not only be ordained but sworn in as an LEO. What a mess.

 

[wbjenks]

After more research, a "school function" is not defined by state statute. OK to carry at the Zoo, Museum, etc.? What about Conner Prairie? There is no definition of what is a school function. The liability is on the License holder. US! If a school is at the event site then we could have a problem.

 

[Coach]

Nursery or Pre school, church "Sunday School" etc. When one attends a worship service IF there is a church school in the building then one has committed a Felony if armed even with a license. Stupid law!!!! Our prosecutor informed me that their office will charge me if I violate that law. The only exception is to obtain permission from the Board/Superintendent. Like that is going to happen.

(disclaimer) I am not a lawyer. But I have seen a lot of Perry Mason reruns.

If it is a church school, and therefore private, and you are carrying legally say on Sunday at a church service. How in the hell are they going to charge you for being on private property and legally armed, and not at a school? I think what the prosecutor says and what he/she can do may be two different things. I like your chances with a good lawyer and a jury. But that is just me. It would be expensive and exhausting.

 

[kludge]

The only exception is to obtain permission from the Board/Superintendent. Like that is going to happen.

...

I am the Pastor!!!!!

You're the pastor and you can't get permission from the board??

 

[Bill of Rights]

After more research, a "school function" is not defined by state statute. OK to carry at the Zoo, Museum, etc.? What about Conner Prairie? There is no definition of what is a school function. The liability is on the License holder. US! If a school is at the event site then we could have a problem.

There is no definition of a "school function", true, but I did find these two definitions.

IC 20-33-8-2
"Educational function"
Sec. 2. As used in this chapter, "educational function" means the performance by a school corporation or its officers or employees of an act or a series of acts in carrying out school purposes.
As added by P.L.1-2005, SEC.17.



<A name=IC20-33-8-4>IC 20-33-8-4
"School purposes"
Sec. 4. As used in this chapter, "school purposes" refers to the purposes for which a school corporation operates, including the following:
(1) To promote knowledge and learning generally.
(2) To maintain an orderly and effective educational system.
(3) To take any action under the authority granted to school corporations and their governing bodies by IC 20-26-5 or by any other statute.
As added by P.L.1-2005, SEC.17.

So yes, the proverbial zoo trip could be no-carry, based on you not being aware of a school trip there that day. Of course, most judges would likely take intent into account, but there is nothing in the law to mandate they do so.

Hope that helps!

Blessings,
B

 

[Bill of Rights]

(disclaimer) I am not a lawyer. But I have seen a lot of Perry Mason reruns.

If it is a church school, and therefore private, and you are carrying legally say on Sunday at a church service. How in the hell are they going to charge you for being on private property and legally armed, and not at a school?

Because the law does not define a school in terms of there being classes going on at the time of the offense. If you have a flat tire and pull into a school parking lot at midnight in July, you have still committed a class D felony in the eyes of the law.

Like you, IANAL and TINLA, because IDSIAHIELN (I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night).

Blessings,
B

 

[wbjenks]

Correct! "School Function" is not the same thing. IF you carry at a school function, known or unknown, you are in violation of Indiana law. Do you want to be the test case?

The church board will not accept legal liability for anyone for anything. I am on my own. I have to carry my own insurance for Clergy malpractice. A sign of the times I am afraid. Render unto Caezar the things that are Caezar's and unto God, the things that are God's. (Jesus Christ)