Defending yourself from LEO

[redneckmedic]

This thread is a spin off of the following:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...raction_with_a_police_officer.html#post492674

JUST TO BE CLEAR, THIS IS NOT A ANTI-LEO thread and is already on thin ice because of the topic. We are talking about self defense not a personal Ruby Ridge here. I have no problem asking the MODS to shut this thread down if it gets out of hand, and I hope they show no slack with anti-LEO crap.

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Doesn't matter the situation, if you are minding your own business, maybe wrong place wrong time. Maybe a bank robbery down the block with the escaped suspect matching your description, doesn't matter.

If you are open fired on by LEO, do you return fire?

Here are some quotes that spawned this thread....

If an officer open fires on you for a situation as above.....do you return fire? I would think not... BUT, I have read so many of you with your judged by 12 and not carried by 6 motto, how does that fit?

WTF!!!! Am I the only person who sees this one sentence as a huge problem?!?

Pulled a gun on you for walking down the street minding your own business, in a polo shirt tucked into shorts with a holstered handgun, listening to music!!!

Can you say escalation of force!!!

I think that was a great story with a many examples of improved learning had he not pulled the alpha dog crap!!! I don't know if I could laugh off a threat on my life as easily as you did.

I would have taken it as a joke and chuckled.

If he then become serious about it I would probably say, "lighten up, Francis."

Cop: "You're lucky I didn't pull a gun on ya!"

Me: " Well, the wifey carries, also, so you would have had to try to shoot both of us. She's got my back. I have her's."

All would be said with a smile, making sure the officer knew I was joking and that no actual threat was intended.

If anyone ever fires on me I will fight for my life.

Anyone.

This would be a threadjack, though. Might be best to start a new topic rather than continue here.

Nope just a general question for the members...not trying to be a jerk or call anyone out, and not rubuttling your comment (although I like where your head is).

I am not anti-LEO by any means, just curious to how that might play out. As cops are human just as criminals are and other citizens and situations aren't always as they appear.

There is a lot of arrogance in this alpha male give me liberty or give me death internet gun forum and I am just curious what the reply is.

 

[Boilers]

Ray Liotta in Unlawful Entry comes to mind.

I hopefully will never be in that situation.

 

[shooter521]

This thread ... is already on thin ice because of the topic.

Guys, be VERY careful in your responses. I'm willing to give you some rope, but this thread could VERY easily go sideways, at which point it will be trashed.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

The last line of what you quoted of my other post pretty much says it all for me.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Essentially, if you were to retaliate in a "misinformed LEO" situation, you would be made out to be the bad guy no matter what.

The typical citizen will always back the "heroes" of the world, and look down on any person that deals harm to them. The media will shine a light of WRONG on you, no matter how innocent you were.

I can hear it now... "Well he shouldn't have been carrying a gun! It's his own fault!"

 

[redneckmedic]

Essentially, if you were to retaliate in a "misinformed LEO" situation, you would be made out to be the bad guy no matter what.

The typical citizen will always back the "heroes" of the world, and look down on any person that deals harm to them. The media will shine a light of WRONG on you, no matter how innocent you were.

I can hear it now... "Well he shouldn't have been carrying a gun! It's his own fault!"

I like where your head is, although you have one piece of history that says your wrong.....remember that fella, oh what was his name, Mr. King, was it? Oh yeah Rodney King!

 

[Lucas156]

What did he mean when he said "you're lucky I didn't pull a gun on you."? "You're lucky I didn't take deadly force on you for excercising your rights."? Just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[300sx]

i would say if you are walking down the street minding own business and LEO PULLS a gun on you. Then yes i would TRY to pull mine..but chances are that they are already on you and your not going to have time..

Now if a LEO FIRES on you and your just walking down the street....They have no right to do that.. you would have to endanger the LEO life for them to rightfully fire at you..If shots fired from a LEO that ran up on you......then yes i would fire back..

LEO are civilians too..they do not have superman powers to just shoot anyone..LEO have the same laws as civilians do, to shoot someone..

 

[ATM]

Purely hypothetical. I can barely imagine the situation.
However, we should be in the habit of examining unlikely situations and running through reaction scenarios in our minds.

That said, my previous statement stands. Fighting for my life could include many things up to and including returning fire.

Not so much give me liberty or give me death at that point; rather, if one of us must die for your mistake I really want it to be you.


ETA: For further clarification, fired upon, not just drawn on.

 

[Joe Williams]

As I just said in the other thread, I will defend myself and my family against any criminal attack, using appropriate levels of force.

I'm not terribly concerned about having to defend my life against a cop, but it's not an impossibility.

This lady got a gun in her face after a cop's son rear ended her. In this situation, if it were my wife with a gun at her neck.... hope I never have to find out.
Store video catches cop bullying woman | Philadelphia Daily News | 07/20/2009

 

[No Time to Shoot]

I have thought about this situation several times. Not because I'm against the police, but because we are all capable of making mistakes. I personally don't have an answer to it because the situations have so many variables. For instance what if you mistake the LEO shooting in your direction as shooting at you and not the bad guy to your left or right?

I personally wouldn't give it an ounce of thought if we had a halfway intelligent police chief in Fort Wayne. But we are stuck with a liberal flunky that thinks semi auto AKs/ARs are for military use only and are far to dangerous to be in citizens hands. If you have read/heard any of Rusty's interviews you would understand where I'm coming from. I wish we were able to vote for the police chief like we do for the sherriff.

 

[redneckmedic]

Way to keep it clean fellas, I like where your heads are!

 

[Bubba]

I'm pretty sure it would be foolish to try to pull a gun on a cop in 99.9% of situations. Chances are they have more friends with guns close by than you do.

If I were faced with a LEO with his/her weapon drawn, I would immediately stop and comply with all directions. If the LEO was so foolish as to actually aim a weapon at me without any cause or provocation, I would not hesitate to show my displeasure... after I've been released. If fired upon, well, I'd hit the deck with my hands empty and hope for the best, then sue the crap out of the department.

Of course, if the LEO in question was not recognizable as such, i.e. not in uniform, displaying a badge, or at least in the company of recognizable police officers, I would defend myself just as I would from any hoodlum. Turns out street thugs can yell "stop police!" just as well as anyone else.

 

[Boilers]

Take your train of thought and change plans.
That is, if you can't draw/fire, step back in time and wish/plan that you had/have a bullet resistant vest, or other members capable of drawing/firing. (applies to any situation not just this narrow topic in this thread)

 

[jennybird]

Am I in the right forum?

Who are you level headed people and what did you do with the INGO Geronimo's?

Seriously. I'm impressed. Very nice job keeping this thread on the up and up.

It's hard to say how you might react in any given situation until you find yourself in it. But, I would like to think that if it were a life or death situation, then yes, I would defend myself against an LEO. Why? Because at that point, in my mind, he is no longer enforcing any laws and therefore is not a Law Enforcement Officer. If they decide later to lock me away for it... well... then it is what it is.

 

[Rob377]

interesting thread.

I kinda like living, so I'd feel compelled to do something about the person trying to kill me. This of course accepts the premise in the OP that he/she has opened fire already.

If an LEO is firing at you for no apparent reason, it's an unlawful use of force.
from a purely black letter law standpoint, defending against that is permissible.

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

but there's a bit of a legal conflict here

IC 35-41-3-3
Use of force relating to arrest or escape
Sec. 3. (a) A person other than a law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an arrest or prevent the other person's escape if:
(1) a felony has been committed; and
(2) there is probable cause to believe the other person committed that felony.
However, such a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under section 2 of this chapter.
(b) A law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force if the officer reasonably believes that the force is necessary to effect a lawful arrest. However, an officer is justified in using deadly force only if the officer:
(1) has probable cause to believe that that deadly force is necessary:
(A) to prevent the commission of a forcible felony; or
(B) to effect an arrest of a person who the officer has probable cause to believe poses a threat of serious bodily

injury to the officer or a third person; and
(2) has given a warning, if feasible, to the person against whom the deadly force is to be used.

So he's going to argue that he reasonably believed you were a bad guy out to kill him AND that he couldn't have given a warning before shooting at you. Keeping in mind that in this scenario, your weapon is still concealed. If he wins on these, his force is lawful. (BUT, one might be able to successfully argue it was reasonably believed to be unlawful, long shot though)

You'd have to argue that the cop losing his mind and shooting at you for no apparent reason is something you reasonably believe to be unlawful use of force, and because he's trying to shoot you reasonably believe serious bodily injury is at play.


IMHO, the cop's argument is a loser. He doesn't see the gun, so there's no reasonable basis for the perceived threat OR the lack of warning. There's also the hindsight bias that would show that he was in the wrong. When it's in front of a court, it's a lot harder to argue you reasonably believed something that was wrong.
The civilian only needs to win on one of the aforementioned issues for the cop's force to actually be unlawful. If so, that shunts it into IC 35-41-3-2, and the civilian should be legally in the clear, at least based on the facts as given in the OP.

however, the conflict in law is that it may be possible for the Cop to reasonably believe that you were a threat and warning wasn't feasible, AND that you reasonably believed his force to be unlawful. A really big misunderstanding, as it were. Theoretically, you're both legally in the right.

How it plays out in front of a judge/jury... that's another story.

 

[HICKMAN]

After reading so many stories of cops breaking down doors and storming homes, only to find that they are in the wrong place, I've honestly wondered how I'd react.

How would I know they were real cops and not some gang dressed up posing as cops?

I guess IMO, self-defense is just that, defense of self against ANY attack or threat of danger.

I pray none of us every have to face a situation like this, be it a cop, soldier or other.

 

[aikidoka]

What did he mean when he said "you're lucky I didn't pull a gun on you."? "You're lucky I didn't take deadly force on you for excercising your rights."? Just doesn't make sense to me.

I explained in the originating thread why I didn't see it as threatening.

 

[mrjarrell]

I think most of us would exercise our natural inclination to defend ourselves. I know I would, if I had no other choice, (including running away).

As far as what the law says, that's pretty well settled. In almost every case in this area the courts have sided with the LEO's against the defendants. Just look at Cory Maye in MS. He was on death row. Now he's only facing life, of course. All because the cops kicked in his door (wrongfully) while he was sleeping and he defended himself. You wouldn't stand a chance in a "court of law", even with a jury of your "peers". Add to that that you'd have to live in fear of retribution from "colleagues" for the rest of your life.

 

[Scout]

Knowing it was a cop shooting, I would draw my cell phone and dial 911. Tell them some crazy guy is shooting at you.

Surely there would be witness around that say I had done nothing wrong, and don't know why the LEO started shooting.