Couple ML questions

[Wheezy50]

I'm curious what other hunters are using in their ML for deer this season? I'm still fairly new to smokepole hunting and am NOT happy with the accuracy I've been getting so far. I hear most people talk about 1-3" groups at 100 yds, I can't get close to that right now.

I shoot a CVA Wolf, with a Center Point 3-9×40 scope. I'm using Win 777 primers. I'm shooting 100 grains of pyrodex pellets, and some "Crush Rib" 300 grain sabots. I've been using a Caldwell Matrix rest for sighting in so a solid steady rest isnt the problem.

Question 1: Is the Blackhorn 209 worth the trouble of using loose powder over the pellets? The pyrodex pellets are convienient but so dirty. I swab the barrel between every shot or every other shot. Is the 777 powder/pellets any cleaner than pyrodex? I've read the blackhorn is much cleaner burning than the others but I'd like to know firsthand experience over website reviews.

Question 2: What sabots are other hunters using? I know there will be a lot of opinions on this but i have to start somewhere. Im considering trying some TC shockwaves or Hornady if i can find them somewhere, and probably going to try 250 grain vs. 300

I'm pretty much going to start my setup over from scratch and I'd love to hear others thoughts/opinions. I know my scope isn't the cream of the crop but it should work well enough for deer hunting. I feel like I should be able to get a three shot group of 2-4" with this gun at 100yds. Am I asking too much?

 

[AGarbers]

I know there are articles on accuracy issues because of using 209 primers. The idea is the have too much power and actually shove the powder and bullet a little ways before ignition takes place causing poor accuracy. Some places sell adapters that allow the use of pistol or rifle primers instead which have less power. When I get home I will post the links to these.

 

[Ryninger]

1. If you want to try a cleaner pellet, try "White Hot" pellets. I have an unopened lb of 209, haven't went through trouble of getting setup for loose yet. Have heard very good things though. Maybe next year...777 is what I run, 100grn with good results. Still dirty though, have to clean after at most 5 shots out of my Encore.

2. Shockwaves and Hornady SST's are the same.... My wife and I both run 100 grn 777 pellets, 250grn SST's. My Encore and her Wolf.

I've talked to a couple guys at my LGS that run 209, they love it. They like how clean it burns, and they enjoyed working up their loads....1st effort was to maximize efficency (no unburnt propellent), then for accuracy. They have a lot more time to shot than I, so another reason I haven't went down that road yet... And no, 2-4" @ 100 isn't unreasonable!

 

[sportsman223]

I get my best accuracy with a fouled bore, just a spit patch in between shoots. 110g 777 loose, Hornady 250g with the black sabots, 25 acp conversion with a cci 400 primmer

 

[Mgderf]

IMR "White Hots" or American Pioneer Powder's "Jim Shockey's Gold" and Power-Belt bullets, an 777 209 primers.

The two powders mentioned are the cleanest burning I've found, and the Power-Belt bullets are full size, NON-saboted bullets, which means more weight hitting the target.

 

[Dargasonus]

My CVA Optima does well with 2 777 pellets and a 295gr powderbelt aerotip. I'm not the best marksman but usually groups within a couple inches at my 85yd backstop. I'm happy with the bullets performance as well, nipped a shoulder on a doe this year and retrieved this mushroom from the ribcage on the exit side.

 

[42769vette]

When I hunted with a muzzleloader. I did 150 rounds of testing in 1 summer, and I learned my setup shot best on shots 2,3,4, and 5. After 5 it started throwing rounds, and shot 1 always went 6 inch's right. I would clean the gun really good the night before season, walk out the door and shoot it, reload and I was ready for hunting.

My father had the exact same setup, and his gun liked shots 1,2,3.

Hand you checked your rings, and base's? Its possible the scope has given up the ghost. The center point scope is not known for quality, they are known for being a freebie that comes with the gun.

 

[hammer24]

I've had good luck with both sst's (shockwaves) and xtps. I had one muzzleloader that really shot the aerotip powerbelts well. Every muzzleloader I've had shot better at 100 gr. of powder than 150.

Like 42769vette said, with that scope, I'd look there first for accuracy problems. Generally, those are throw-away scopes for me, and new glass is put on immediately. If nothing else, strip the scope, mount and rings down, degrease, blue loc-tite it all back together and start over.

 

[HuntMeister]

Can you post up a target for us to see what kind of groups you are getting?
IMHO, Blackhorn 209 is THE choice for a black powder propellant. I used it a few years before going the smokeless route.
Some folks have great results with pellets but I never could, loose powder was always the best choice for me.
You want a good tight fit with your sabot / bullet combination.

 

[whitetailbowhunter]

I use Hodgens 777 powder (100 grains), 209 primer, and Hornady SST's in my Knight Vision Muzzleloader. Iam able to consistently shoot <3" groups at 100 yards. Keep trying different bullets would be my suggestion. I've never heard anything about the 209 primer being "too powerful", but I have noticed a very significant difference in my shot groups when using anything other than the SST's.. that's just what my gun likes to eat.

 

[Indybeer]

Was using 250g shockwaves with 3 pyrodex pellets in my Triumph, but just didn't have the accuracy I wanted. Went back to Powerbelts like I used in my old Knight Wolverine and my accuracy is back to where I want it. I use the new 270g platinums...they load so nice!

 

[AGarbers]

Here's the website I was referring to that sells primer adapters. Even if you decide not to go with his products his articles do make you think a little.
Large Rifle primer VariFlame

 

[Hookeye]

Shockey Gold................tried it when it first came out, was terrible.

 

[sportsman223]

I have been shooting the 25 ACP conversion for years out of my encore works great and alot cleaner everything stays inside the case. My wife and kids shoot the Contender G2's in .45cal have not seen much difference with the conversion but they are only shooting 70g of 777 with a 200g SST
I only run Waren rings and bases, and Leupolds VXII's or better, but that's just me

 

[mdmayo]

A&H 420 .50 cal: 105gr loose 777, 300gr Barnes Expander MZ, .32 H&R breech plug using cci 400 primers, spit patch every other.

Sighted in and keeps 1-3" at 75yd Pretty consistently, I'm sure the gun is capable of better, but I'm hunting for meat, not punching paper. Took me quite a while and a bunch of different bullets to find the load she liked, maybe you just haven't found yours yet? I know mine disliked the pellets and 209 ignition, A LOT.

 

[Wheezy50]

Thanks for the input!

I don't have the extra $ for a nicer scope right now, maybe before next season. Im going to try the clean/degrease/reinstall with loctite on my scope.

The next setup im going to try is 100 grains of White Hot pellets pushing a 250 grain shockwave. I picked them up tonight. We'll see how the CVA likes that combo.

I will try to remember to snap a few pics whenever i get out to shoot, didnt take any last time

 

[Cynical]

My Knight MK-85 shoots awesome groups with 100grns Pyrodex pellets and 245 grn power belts. I don't even swab between shots because the power belts load so easy. I got 2" groups at 150 yds with them. The downside is my gun shoots about 12" high at 50 yards with that zero. I spine shot three deer aiming for the sweet spot behind the shoulder. I have since converted to 209 primers and it shoots just as well. I always foul the bore with 1 pellet and lightly swab before loading. My gun shoots way closer to zero with a "dirty" bore instead of clean. Hope this helps.

 

[tem375]

Try bore butter, and a consistent cleaning method that is the same between EVERY shot. Mine is a patch with bore clp, a patch with bore bitter then two dry patches(both sides of all four patches) then clean the breech plug every shot as well. It seems excessive but my encore shooting pellets with 209 primers will easily shoot clover leaf 3 shot groups at 100 and I can manage about 1.75 inch groups at 200. No big dollar optics either just a bushnel. The key to an accurate muzzleloader is consistency in your cleaning and loading process.

 

[Dirty Steve]

My kids shoot anywhere from 70 to 90 grains of Blackhorn 209 and the 250 gr Shockwave in their CVA Wolf. It shoots very well. You need to consider messing with your powder charge. Sometimes a heavy powder charge will not give you the best accuracy. In testing several years ago, we started at 70 grains and worked up in 5 grain increments to 110 grains. The sweet spot was 70 to 90 grains (70 for our younger son to reduce recoil). Once we got to 95 grains and above with Blackhorn, the group sizes started opening up again and we were finding unburned powder on the ground in front of where we were shooting. Just because some other guys rifle likes 3 pyrodex pellets doesn't mean yours will. Side note, the Blackhorn is really clean burning and it is really quick and easy to clean the rifle afterwards.

Dirty Steve

 

[Wheezy50]

I like the idea of working up the correct amount of powder for my gun. Next summer I plan to start working on the ML much earlier, and make the switch to loose powder. I just don't have the time (or $) to shoot a lot of rounds right now.

I appreciate the input on this stuff. I'm sure that the consistency of my cleaning methods between shots has something to do with it too. Most times I was swabbing the barrel out after every shot but it seems like a lot of you have better accuracy after a shot or two. I will try to be more consistent and do the same procedure between every shot, and not clean every time.