Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[ditcherman]

There's some times I would think persecution would be better... At least I couldn't focus on my own selfish desires.

When it comes to be a Christian, I'm my own worst enemy.

Hardship of any type will prioritize what is important.
When it really comes down to it, if we were to lose this country as we know it, we could still be completely in our faith.

Many have mixed the two up for too long and will have to work that out when the time comes.

 

[foszoe]

This is what happens when I post sentences instead of paragraphs.

It's not that my paragraphs are any clearer, it's only that most readers tire quickly.

I am trying to juxtapose the cross with the political tree of liberty and set apart one from the other through capitalization.

The cross is the Tree of Liberty for the Christian. The Christian is a citizen of the Kingdom and a sojourner in this world.

There is no such thing as a Christian nation. There are Christian people. Inasmuch as there are enough Christians being blessed the nation may take on the appearance of being blessed but that is a misattribution of the blessings of God upon his people.

I typed this on. Phone enduring much suffering

 

[ditcherman]

This is what happens when I post sentences instead of paragraphs.

It's not that my paragraphs are any clearer, it's only that most readers tire quickly.

I am trying to juxtapose the cross with the political tree of liberty and set apart one from the other through capitalization.

The cross is the Tree of Liberty for the Christian. The Christian is a citizen of the Kingdom and a sojourner in this world.

There is no such thing as a Christian nation. There are Christian people. Inasmuch as there are enough Christians being blessed the nation may take on the appearance of being blessed but that is a misattribution of the blessings of God upon his people.

I typed this on. Phone enduring much suffering

I do almost everything on my phone.
Oh the burdens we carry.

I wasn’t arguing/disagreeing with you, just stating the opposite way some people make it.

 

[foszoe]

I do almost everything on my phone.
Oh the burdens we carry.

I wasn’t arguing/disagreeing with you, just stating the opposite way some people make it.

Didn't take it that way. Was sorta replying to you and also to clarify for Jetta what I was trying to get across.

Taking it a step further. I believe that a hallmark of interfaith dialogue is affirming the common ground while not ignoring the disagreements.

When often happens is a person makes 10 points. Of those 10, the next person agrees with 9/10.

Now there is a choice to be made, affirm the some of the 9/10 and perhaps offer further insights for edification then address the disagreement charitably.

What we often observe, and I am talking life experiences not INGO specific, is a focus sole on the disagreement. I am not sure that approach gains much of anything.

A clear trend of “hostility toward established knowledge” has also been observed, not only in theological circles but in virtually every profession. People are no longer “merely uninformed” but rather are “aggressively wrong,” writes Tom Nichols, who has studied this phenomenon. People become hostile and combative when those with actual knowledge and real expertise challenge the amateur dabblers. Furthermore, the amateurs are “unwilling to learn” when they are corrected by experts, and they “reject professional know-how” with anger.
The easy availability of information via the internet leads people to be overly confident in their knowledge, and many behave as pseudo-experts because they have researched a topic for a few hours on the web. Because they have learned something, they are confident that they understand it. They have no appreciation for the complexity of the subject, which they actually know almost nothing about. Others have devoted their lives to studying a specific subject deeply, but this means little to the amateur who is overconfident in his competency.

 

[ditcherman]

Didn't take it that way. Was sorta replying to you and also to clarify for Jetta what I was trying to get across.

Taking it a step further. I believe that a hallmark of interfaith dialogue is affirming the common ground while not ignoring the disagreements.

When often happens is a person makes 10 points. Of those 10, the next person agrees with 9/10.

Now there is a choice to be made, affirm the some of the 9/10 and perhaps offer further insights for edification then address the disagreement charitably.

What we often observe, and I am talking life experiences not INGO specific, is a focus sole on the disagreement. I am not sure that approach gains much of anything.

I truly believe we are all more alike than we are different.

JK and I can be friends, as long as we don’t talk about j6!

 

[foszoe]

I truly believe we are all more alike than we are different.

JK and I can be friends, as long as we don’t talk about j6!

Well K is the 12th letter. Dividing by 2 we get 6 so JK=j6x2. Coincidence?

That's how theology gets done!

 

[ditcherman]

Well K is the 12th letter. Dividing by 2 we get 6 so JK=j6x2. Coincidence?

That's how theology gets done!

You have a beautiful mind.

 

[historian]

This is what happens when I post sentences instead of paragraphs.

It's not that my paragraphs are any clearer, it's only that most readers tire quickly.

It is the burden those of us who must read must carry.

 

[historian]

JK and I can be friends, as long as we don’t talk about j6!

Bad company corrupts good character.

 

[Expat]

Hopefully some of you can help me with information on the Global Methodist denomination.
Some background first. I have been a member of the local Presbyterian Church for a very long time. I enjoy the pipe organ, the liturgy, the calm nature, the hymns, a good well thought out sermon, etc. However the Church just went too far left for me. Just name the issue and they are on the far left. So I decided to look around. I don't want to become Mennonite, so that eliminates a big part of the local churches. I don't want to stand and sway for 10-15 minutes to songs that I don't know and can't sing along to as they seem to improvise through them a lot. I don't want a church that seems to feel the only actual item to follow in the Bible is tithing. I have visited a large number of the local churches during this time. I thought I was going to just go to a Covenant Brethren, but they are changing pastors right now and I am not sure how crazy I am about the new interim pastor. I just found out that one of the local Methodist Churches switched to the Global Methodist denomination. As I understand it, and I may be wrong, but this denomination was created so that the UMC could go down the path of PCUSA and adopt a LGBTQ belief system. Is that correct? Any other differences?

 

[45sRfun]

I didn't mention politics or government for a reason. It's divisive.



It took me all day to figure out what you meant by "J6ers". And now that I do know...
Sorry, but I simply must respond. Do forgive me all.



This notion that we're being persecuted in America is at the least laughable, and at the worst insulting to those around the world dying for being a Christian.

What freedom do we have? Oh, let me count the ways (in no particular order).

• They don't call Fort Wayne, "the city of churches" for just historical reasons
• Politician open flaunt their Christianity
• We have Christian organizations meeting in classrooms on secular public campuses
• We have tax breaks for Christian organization and donors
• I can't swing a dead cat without it falling into a cub with Bible in my gigantic cube farm I call work
• "The Chosen", a highly popular TV show, is about Christ
• Christian radio
• Christian TV networks
• Christian flags
• Christian marches
• Christian displays
• Christian websites
• Christian podcast
• Christian conferences
• Christian prayer breakfast for politicians

The list can go on and on. I'm sure you can cite some abnormal anecdotes, but for the most part Christians enjoy more freedom in America than nearly any other place or time. I can celebrate the birth of Christ - something you couldn't do in Puritan America of the past.


As to January 6th - that was purely political. Let's not conflate it with Christianity. Whether some tried to hide it under the guise of Christianity or not, it was a political action; pure and simple. There's no Biblical mandate telling me protest and storm the Capitol because my favorite politician didn't get elected. In fact, it can pretty easily be argued against it.

I am not saying that "we" are being persecuted in America, but that there is persecution and it is going to get worse if things don't turn around. Agree, there is no Biblical mandate to storm the capitol. The "storming" of the capitol was staged, and some folks got caught up in it. I am not aware of any Christians storming the Capitol.

 

[45sRfun]

I didn't mention politics or government for a reason. It's divisive.

True, but so is religion. Anyway, I could have picked a better example of persecution, like the Colorado bakery that was sued for refusing to make a gay wedding cake.

 

[historian]

. I just found out that one of the local Methodist Churches switched to the Global Methodist denomination. As I understand it, and I may be wrong, but this denomination was created so that the UMC could go down the path of PCUSA and adopt a LGBTQ belief system. Is that correct? Any other differences?

Basically, yes. I used to work with the CFO of the Gobals, so I have an inside track on this. Basically, the UMC brought an LGBTQEIEIO marriage proposal forward. It was resoundingly defeated in the conference. The "Conservatives" won the day. To avoid bad feelings, the globalists decided to let the UMC leave and keep the name while the Globalists formed a new organization. About 1/4 of the US churches left the UMC (and in about ten years about another 1/4 would have wished they did when they could), and it is expected that somewhere around 90% of the churches in Africa and Asia will go with the Globals. Globals are still not "conservative" in any sense of the word, but compared to the UMC they are.

My prediction is that the UMC, ELCA, PCUSA, and all 10 episcopalians are going to join up sometime in the next 20 years as their population gets older and dies. They have the cash to maintain themselves for a very long time, but don't have the bodies to do it.

 

[Expat]

Basically, yes. I used to work with the CFO of the Gobals, so I have an inside track on this. Basically, the UMC brought an LGBTQEIEIO marriage proposal forward. It was resoundingly defeated in the conference. The "Conservatives" won the day. To avoid bad feelings, the globalists decided to let the UMC leave and keep the name while the Globalists formed a new organization. About 1/4 of the US churches left the UMC (and in about ten years about another 1/4 would have wished they did when they could), and it is expected that somewhere around 90% of the churches in Africa and Asia will go with the Globals. Globals are still not "conservative" in any sense of the word, but compared to the UMC they are.

My prediction is that the UMC, ELCA, PCUSA, and all 10 episcopalians are going to join up sometime in the next 20 years as their population gets older and dies. They have the cash to maintain themselves for a very long time, but don't have the bodies to do it.

Thanks.
They are going to need to do something. My PCUSA is a very large complex. The Sanctuary is also very old... like mid 1800's old. But they are now down to 15-20 attendees and probably 40-45 living members. There are a couple of very old retired lawyers that must be donating a big number to keep the lights on at this point.

 

[historian]

Thanks.
They are going to need to do something. My PCUSA is a very large complex. The Sanctuary is also very old... like mid 1800's old. But they are now down to 15-20 attendees and probably 40-45 living members. There are a couple of very old retired lawyers that must be donating a big number to keep the lights on at this point.

Honestly, it isn't the donors but the endowment. Every time one of those members died, they probably bequeathed something to the church, meaning there is a lot of cash. Also, the overhead is surprisingly low as the church gets smaller; just a maintenance budget and a pastor's salary are usually the bulk. The harder part is having people available to operate the church committees and keep the processes in place.

 

[Expat]

Honestly, it isn't the donors but the endowment. Every time one of those members died, they probably bequeathed something to the church, meaning there is a lot of cash. Also, the overhead is surprisingly low as the church gets smaller; just a maintenance budget and a pastor's salary are usually the bulk. The harder part is having people available to operate the church committees and keep the processes in place.

They have pretty well pissed through most of the old money. They/we dropped over a million dollars on the deficit over the last 20 or so years. I was a ruling elder twice. I counseled some discretion and was basically told I wasn’t putting my faith in the Lord.

 

[ditcherman]

I counseled some discretion and was basically told I wasn’t putting my faith in the Lord.

Don’t you just love getting that lecture?

 

[historian]

Salvation is found in Jesus Christ. Nowhere else. Martin Luther would be aghast to think that anyone found salvation solely in his teachings.

10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

I Corinthians 1:10-17

It's pretty simple for me. Either Psalm 34 is a lie or I am unrighteous.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[foszoe]

It's pretty simple for me. Either Psalm 34 is a lie or I am unrighteous.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

The real Psalm 34 or Psalm 34 as decided 100s of years after Christ?

 

[historian]

The real Psalm 34 or Psalm 34 as decided 100s of years after Christ? View attachment 334747

The one that uses the calendar so that Christmas isn't in summer.