City to install cameras that record license plate numbers

[Ingomike]

If they are not doing anything illegal, why would it be a problem for them?

The small thinkers like JH always think of government as benevolent and benign. They never think forward to where TPTB redefine “illegal” to be what you do…

 

[JeepHammer]

We received a bill and a fine for not paying it all at the same time.
And on top of that, it wasn't even our car or license plate number.
It was a grey car, and that's where the similarities stopped.
Have never even been on the new toll bridge.

It happens, and it happened to me.

I simply read the entire form sent to me, used the dispute process listed,
and never heard a word back,
But also never heard a word from the courts which is what they were threatening if I didn't pay.

It seems there is a rational, reasonable person in the other end of that dispute process taking care of their job...

.....

NOT DIRECTED AT OP...
At no time did he suggest sitting in toll booth line because of one mistake,
Or call anyone 'Communist' or say his personal 'Liberty' was being trampled on...

I'm a calm, rational, reasonable person, so I didn't take it as a personal insult, rant, rave, demand all cameras everywhere be taken immediately down because *I* said so, etc.
There just isn't any "Karen" in me.

It's just part of the occasional mistakes made when licence plate readers mistake state or misread a letter/number.
Took about 10 minutes and done...
(And I've sat in lines MUCH longer than 10 minutes trying to get through a toll booth before)

I didn't let it ruin my life, instill false paranoia, or further trigger underlying mental illness, etc.

 

[Ingomike]

I didn't let it ruin my life, instill false paranoia, or further trigger underlying mental illness, etc.

You just cannot make a post without slandering others…

 

[bwframe]

...blah, blah...

I didn't let it ruin my life, instill false paranoia, or further trigger underlying mental illness, etc.

 

[KLB]

Too many quotes of him cluttering up the thread.

 

[maxipum]

I'm guessing this won't be taken well...

The vehicle is supposed to be properly tagged (plated).
That's the law you agreed to when you got a driver's licence (a privilege, not a 'Right').

Those plates are supposed to be clearly visible, space for the plate provided by the manufacturer to keep you legal.
It couldn't be more simple.

Anything in the public domain (roadways, public access parking spaces, etc.)
It's clearly legal to video.

.......

*IF* you aren't doing anything illegal, why is it a problem with you?

.......

You all complain about crime, particularly crimes against persons, but you complain when a tool is available that will help solve, or potentially reduce those crimes?

It seems to be schizophrenic thinking (at best) to first want crime reduced, or solved,
Then complain about tools that will allow law enforcement to do just that very thing...

You DEMAND things change, crimes get solved, then turn right around and demand law enforcement does it *YOUR* way...

It's not about *YOU*,
And you can't have it both ways.

.......

As to "Big Brother" watching *YOUR* every move...

Get over yourself, you just aren't that important.

No reason to give you the first thought if you aren't doing something illegal.
There are thousands of hours of video of most people going about the business of normal life, and no one gives a crap in the slightest...

It's actually a pain in the butt to have so many average people in the frame when they are trying to catch criminals...
From privacy rights to storage media space, to eyeballs to figure out the difference.

I have deleted thousands of hours of video of just average folks from my small security system simply because they weren't doing anything illegal (or interesting).

There is an entire industry in the billions of dollars just trying to filter the average folks OUT of video so they can concentrate on criminals.
(See every video security company in the world)

This makes me think there are ulterior motives involved,
From paranoia (mental illness), thinking they are so important the NSA/CIA/FBI is tracking their every move,
(The tin foil hat bunch)

To shady people doing sketchy stuff not wanting to get caught...

Well I think 1930s Germany is calling and wants the brown shirt back.

 

[jwamplerusa]

OK, hopefully back on topic.

Zionsville and Boone County are both using the license plate scanning cameras. In the case of Zionsville they are trying to capture essentially all entry points to the town.

I have had a long discussion with both Chief Spears and Sheriff Neilsen regarding license plate scanners and their use. Both were able to provide specific references to events where the cameras played a direct role in capturing criminals and keeping drugs out of our community.

Ultimately I told each gentleman that we would have to agree to disagree. While I understood their desire for the technology and the utility of the data; my knowledge of electronics, computers, networks, and the corporate world did not allow me to endorse license plate readers. Such technology CAN be used for good, and I believe each departments use is honorable. Unfortunately they don't actually "own" the technology, the networks, the databases, or have actual physical control over the storage or transmission means. Therefore, even though they may have a contract which states the data is secure and deleted after 30 days they have absolutely no way to know or to control the security of the data.

The harsh reality is all users of license plate reader technology are feeding the metadata repositories for any bad actors, domestic or foreign, who access the data. After what I saw the STASI were able to do with pen and paper regarding meta-data on East German citizens, the answer to all such technology is NO.

Speed cameras, red light cameras? ABSOLUTELY NOT! If I can't meet and cross examine my accuser (not the officer which rubber stamped a citation printed out from a database), then the technology is a NO GO. Personally I am extremely impressed with what Sylvain showed the French doing. That should have happened here.

 

[Ingomike]

Personally I am extremely impressed with what Sylvain showed the French doing. That should have happened here.

What they are doing is a very different thing. Are these readers on a pole somewhere? Then yes as seen in the pictures. My understanding is most departments are deploying the readers on city vehicles, a different situation.

 

[BigRed]

Perhaps Clyde Barrow was a man ahead of his time....If I recall correctly, he ran with around 15 different plates!

 

[jwamplerusa]

What they are doing is a very different thing. Are these readers on a pole somewhere? Then yes as seen in the pictures. My understanding is most departments are deploying the readers on city vehicles, a different situation.

No, the ones around here are on poles (like a stop sign post) with a solar panel and electronics box, and the camera pointing in the direction of travel just past the intersection.

 

[tbhausen]

So much to unpack here…

It’s my understanding, from friends in Australia, that they use cameras between points, look at the timestamps, and calculate your average speed. If the average speed was too high, surprise! You get a ticket in the mail. That sucks. But apparently very few people speed in Australia now. I do believe the French have the right idea when it comes to these traffic enforcement cameras.

Reading the article linked in the OP, though, that’s not what the subject cameras are all about. Can we trust government and law enforcement to stay within their stated purpose? I’m sure many here will say “of course not”. Personally, if the cameras are used only to solve violent crimes and the data isn’t retained for more than 30 days, with no traffic enforcement use at all, then I wouldn’t have much of a problem with this. If someone in my family was a victim of a violent crime, I would certainly be grateful this tool is available to law enforcement if it helps solve the case. And if we do learn they are being used for more than their stated purpose, we could always go all French on them

 

[tbhausen]

Unfortunately they don't actually "own" the technology, the networks, the databases, or have actual physical control over the storage or transmission means. Therefore, even though they may have a contract which states the data is secure and deleted after 30 days they have absolutely no way to know or to control the security of the data.

Very good point, food for thought…

 

[printcraft]

As to "Big Brother" watching *YOUR* every move...

Get over yourself, you just aren't that important.

No reason to give you the first thought if you aren't doing something illegal.
There are thousands of hours of video of most people going about the business of normal life, and no one gives a crap in the slightest...

To shady people doing sketchy stuff not wanting to get caught...

https://theweek.com/articles/464430/why-did-obama-administration-spy-associated-press

 

[jsharmon7]

I am SHOCKED a thread on INGO turned political and someone was accused of hating freedom. Anyway, the cameras probably mentioned in the OP are Flock cameras:

Flock Safety

Lots of counties bordering Marion County use them, and I can only speculate as to why. Some agencies have them on police cars as they drive around the city as well. They look for things like stolen plates, stolen cars, people who may have warrants, etc. they can also see who came and went through a particular place at a particular time. Lots of other cameras are floating around doing the same thing already, but most aren’t aware of it.

Persistent surveillance systems do raise privacy concerns, but courts have generally ruled license plates have no expectation of privacy.

 

[Leadeye]

I'm still curious about the number of crimes committed with stolen cars as opposed to those directly connected to the criminals.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

Does IN/KY actually ever send bills for the bridge tolls?

The wife and I have one(1) EZ Pass but every so often we drive two(2) cars over the bridge when travelling to visit the hillbilly family. Have never gotten a bill in the mail. Bad plate read, lazy gov't employee, poorly programmed software, so small they don't care?

Just had a revelation. We are usually driving "convoy" style so maybe it picks up the EZ Pass tagged to both license plates and bills us twice?

When you cross the Ohio river bridge it takes several pics of your car. Then an automated process searches bmv records for plate info then sends the bill. It's not a gov agency that does it. It's a private business....ask me how I know.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Does IN/KY actually ever send bills for the bridge tolls?

The wife and I have one(1) EZ Pass but every so often we drive two(2) cars over the bridge when travelling to visit the hillbilly family. Have never gotten a bill in the mail. Bad plate read, lazy gov't employee, poorly programmed software, so small they don't care?

Just had a revelation. We are usually driving "convoy" style so maybe it picks up the EZ Pass tagged to both license plates and bills us twice?

probably. I never get a bill either. Just a monthly statement showing my toll activity.

And most likely what is happening is they read the ezpass. 1 charge. Then they get a hit on a car with no transponder and capture the plate number. They see that plate number is registered to your ezpass. 1 charge. (likely assuming that the transponder just didnt get read and charging you since the license plate is tied to your account)

 

[Cameramonkey]

And I would argue that even those privacy filter clear covers are illegal. Assuming the law just says you cant obscure the view of the plate, putting something over it to obscure the view of a camera or from a certain angle is still obscuring it, Even though a human can read it from behind. Its still being obscured, even though its only obscured at certain angles.

 

[Ingomike]

No, the ones around here are on poles (like a stop sign post) with a solar panel and electronics box, and the camera pointing in the direction of travel just past the intersection.

Hmmm, Need to look for them. Got a pic to post, even if from the web?

 

[JeepHammer]

The big props that undergird all this rely on court interpretations that were made in a no technology time.

One was using their car near a bank robbery and the plate was publicly visible police staking out the bank on a tip. Simple, the courts of the time ruled, the plate is “public” for all to see.

Then we had the evolution of the camera, first just in the hands of the photographers, then in the hands of the public, then ubiquitous in society. Courts ruled in a time of few cameras that if you were out in public and were in a photo, it was public and you could do nothing about it.

Put these two together in a highly technological era and we are light years beyond what the courts were thinking of when they made these rulings

So let’s flesh out where we are headed in a day of 24 hour video collection. (widespread facial recognition is next.)

Public services collect license plate data they claim is for crime solving, then the cash strapped municipalities begin to sell that data to big tech, big tech puts all that data online combined with other data they collect. There is no privacy anywhere in this system. Not at home, not at work, nowhere. (And spare me the BS that one doesn’t have to have a phone, most all jobs require one now,). In Lawrence v. Texas the court ruled on a right to privacy, that privacy is now gone, the data mongers know who is in that room having sex.

To my knowledge no court in the modern era has ever looked at this level of use of data to see if it crosses a constitutional line. Just you proponents pushing outdated rulings.

I for one want control of my privacy, as do most of INGO, that you cannot respect that desire says a lot about you…

All that to say you don't want to be photographed in PUBLIC,
Even though it's 100% legal and stand up in courts...

Problem solved, don't go out in public.

And if you don't think every shred of data is being mined, your licence plate can't be traced to you currently, you are dead wrong.

Indy police used Kroger store data (legally purchased it) to catch dope dealers by tracking how many plastic bags and mixers they purchased with the discount scan tag for, or paid for with a check/debit/credit card,
Or did that one get past you a couple years back?

You just have the wrong people...
And the wrong time frame.
It's been being done for decades,
And it's being done by private companies.

What *YOU* won't acknowledge is the government isn't allowed to keep survalience on you directly unless you are suspected of a crime.

See all the hoopla and congressional mandates/laws passed after J. Edgar Hoover files became public.

So the work around is private companies that have no restrictions on public information...
Have you ever seen a full "Credit History Report"?
Mine wouldn't fit in a single CD there were so many pages.
Every vehicle I ever bought or financed, every bill I ever paid, every bank account I ever had, every cell phone I ever had, including a disposable I paid cash for and only used until I got home, connected to me by the people I called most,
Every school/class I ever took, the books I checked out at the public library, and the list goes on...

Or do you think the governments billion dollar association with these companies is to find out when you last paid your cable bill?

Nope, like all conspiracy theorists, looking in the wrong direction 100% of the time.

What this says about me is, I'm aware and at least looking in the correct direction.
In case you didn't notice, the federal consumer bureau WAS trying to address this very issue,
Trump killed the bureau...

It's 100% IMPOSSIBLE to avoid data collection in the US if you participate in society. Period.
It's the conservative/republican battle cry magnified 10,000 times...
CAPITALISM!

You all don't want ANY regulation, this is what you get even when privacy laws apply to the government/law enforcement,
No one will touch the third rail of rampant & toxic capitalism...

*IF* you are at least aware of how this stuff is collected, then you can mitigate some of it.

COVID masks are currently driving facial recognition nuts!
And of course, the conservatives/capitalists insist on running around without masks, for example...

The 20 watt bulb bunch insist on ranting & raving on the internet,
All the while every word/picture is being digitally copied for anyone with money to access,
Trillion dollar tech companies are logging/storing every key stroke, the pictures you look at, and for how long you look at them forever...

And you all think because you use a avatar & user name you are hidden,
While this site has been cracked several times, not that it had to be cracked since you all are ranting and raving in public...

The latest hack/crack, whatever they call it revealed my password, which is quite ironic considering what I used.
Let's just say it isn't flattering to the forum.

The moderators flew off the handle at me because figured out who one particularly annoying member was simply by the pictures he posted and searching for similar photos he was tagged by name in...
HE POSTED HIS OWN NAME and I got suspended for a Google search...
And I know about ZERO when it comes to computers.

My "Credit Report" has my medical history, medical coding by procedure submitted to my insurance company...
I hope they enjoyed the hemmroid removal a few years back, I have no idea how they can use it or sell it, but there it is...

Unless you are born at home, home schooled, and now live in a hole out in the woods, earn everything in cash, spend noting but cash, and never go to a store with survalience,
It's 100% guaranteed you have a credit report file somewhere...

That file is $35-$175 to aquire.
Anyone can order a credit report on you, depending on the details you want the price goes up.

It opened the day your birth announcement/birth certificate was field at the county records office, and it will remain open long after your death certificate is registered.

Just in case you wonder,
They use 16 digit personal identifier numbers, your SSN is just another fact in your file.
16 digits allow for many more people than have ever lived to be listed/sorted between than your SSN.

So tell me again how I'm somehow infringing on others rights by simply disagreeing with them...
And attempting to point the correct direction they should be looking when paranoid about data collection.

The police are over worked and underpaid, they don't have time to mess with someone doing nothing, and are legally prohibited from doing so,
While on the other hand, the credit reporting agencies and data miners on the internet GET PAID REALLY WELL to do just that very thing, watch every move you make, every purchase you make, every detail of your life...

And if that weren't enough,
There is a DNA testing site that has a really low price...
And they are actually selling your information, and actual DNA to to whoever has the cash for them.
The FTC used to control it somewhat, but the last administration dumped it in the lap of the FDA, which has exactly ZERO regulations about who gets your DNA.
All privacy issues went out the window when you didn't read the fine print and gave any usage or data sharing rights away...

With exactly ZERO conspiracy theory involved, and 100% accuracy,
Your DNA could show up at a crime scene, transfered from the swab/sample you sent them and signed all rights away on...

And that's no BS, research it yourself.

Start with the DOD/military telling service members/veterans NOT to do these DNA kits, that's easily verifiable...