Church security, is everyone an expert?

[Coach]

You guys aren’t tracking what I’m trying to get across, so I’ll stop here. But in response, the video I saw, Wilson was the only one displaying good gun handling techniques, one guy shoves his loaded pistol in his armpit so he can dial the damned phone?

I hear you and I think your point with the UPS Driver and NYPD are valid. Good gun handling is necessary and it does not always happen. Those are not things that are properly stressed in training of all sorts. I think better training can solve that. My initial point was that the good guys did not shoot each other.

As far as bad gun handling in the church. Judging who got swept by muzzles in the video can be tough to accurately judge. I have been at matches in person where no one was swept or muzzled but video posted later certainly looked like it happened. In those cases I know what the facts were. In the church case the facts are tougher to know. It sure looks like some people got swept, and that should not happen and is unacceptable. We should all learn from it. The folks in the church did better than the police with the UPS driver or the NYPD. We civilians are capable.

On a slightly different note. I hope you keep participating in the discussion. We are all better when we hear viewpoints that differ from our own. If we all agree on everything what is the point of a discussion.

 

[Vigilant]

I hear you and I think your point with the UPS Driver and NYPD are valid. Good gun handling is necessary and it does not always happen. Those are not things that are properly stressed in training of all sorts. I think better training can solve that. My initial point was that the good guys did not shoot each other.

As far as bad gun handling in the church. Judging who got swept by muzzles in the video can be tough to accurately judge. I have been at matches in person where no one was swept or muzzled but video posted later certainly looked like it happened. In those cases I know what the facts were. In the church case the facts are tougher to know. It sure looks like some people got swept, and that should not happen and is unacceptable. We should all learn from it. The folks in the church did better than the police with the UPS driver or the NYPD. We civilians are capable.

On a slightly different note. I hope you keep participating in the discussion. We are all better when we hear viewpoints that differ from our own. If we all agree on everything what is the point of a discussion.

Not to sound argumentative, but sweeping and all aside, is your armpit EVER a decent place keeper for a loaded gun while your hands are busy on a cellphone?

 

[Coach]

Not to sound argumentative, but sweeping and all aside, is your armpit EVER a decent place keeper for a loaded gun while your hands are busy on a cellphone?

Is it optimal? No. If I sweep anyone putting it there unacceptable. If I put it there instead of holster that flops shut upon the draw it and I don't sweep anyone doing it or I don't sweep people with it there then acceptable. Should I have a better holster so I can re-holster? Absolutely. I don't know about you but in my case most of my wisdom comes from experience (mine or other people's) and much of that experience came from bad judgement.

Typing this made me think of something. I can remember reading a Jeff Cooper story about one time when he was in a car in Central America and believed he was being followed. He put the gun from the holster under his thigh. I think that could also have been a sub-optimal idea.

Put it in quality holster that is accessible. Much better option in both cases.

There is much to learn and discuss from this Texas shooting. There are things that could have been done better and hopefully will be done better due to this experience.

 

[Vigilant]

Is it optimal? No. If I sweep anyone putting it there unacceptable. If I put it there instead of holster that flops shut upon the draw it and I don't sweep anyone doing it or I don't sweep people with it there then acceptable. Should I have a better holster so I can re-holster? Absolutely. I don't know about you but in my case most of my wisdom comes from experience (mine or other people's) and much of that experience came from bad judgement.

Typing this made me think of something. I can remember reading a Jeff Cooper story about one time when he was in a car in Central America and believed he was being followed. He put the gun from the holster under his thigh. I think that could also have been a sub-optimal idea.

Put it in quality holster that is accessible. Much better option in both cases.

There is much to learn and discuss from this Texas shooting. There are things that could have been done better and hopefully will be done better due to this experience.

Miami proved gun under leg =bad idea, but I’m here to tell you that my backup goes under my leg quite often. The point of the armpit is, if action is dead enough you are standing in the clear on your cell phone, just reholster before diverting both hands to cell usage and armpit to gun retention.

 

[ditcherman]

Miami proved gun under leg =bad idea, but I’m here to tell you that my backup goes under my leg quite often. The point of the armpit is, if action is dead enough you are standing in the clear on your cell phone, just reholster before diverting both hands to cell usage and armpit to gun retention.

You just said in our friend Trapper Jim's thread on reholstering that there is never a need for a no look reholster, well here it is, apparently someone thought it more important to dial 911 than to buy a holster that didn't collapse or at least not train be to do a no look reholster.
Also for the record I can think of times the gun will go in my armpit and under my leg in the truck, but not sweeping anyone else.

 

[ditcherman]

I hear you and I think your point with the UPS Driver and NYPD are valid. Good gun handling is necessary and it does not always happen. Those are not things that are properly stressed in training of all sorts. I think better training can solve that. My initial point was that the good guys did not shoot each other.

As far as bad gun handling in the church. Judging who got swept by muzzles in the video can be tough to accurately judge. I have been at matches in person where no one was swept or muzzled but video posted later certainly looked like it happened. In those cases I know what the facts were. In the church case the facts are tougher to know. It sure looks like some people got swept, and that should not happen and is unacceptable. We should all learn from it. The folks in the church did better than the police with the UPS driver or the NYPD. We civilians are capable.

On a slightly different note. I hope you keep participating in the discussion. We are all better when we hear viewpoints that differ from our own. If we all agree on everything what is the point of a discussion.

I respect your opinion as a person and a trainer so I want to ask you, with your experience - Do you really expect that when a 'situation' goes down involving a bad guy and good guys with guns that no one will get swept? Not a classroom/range setting but a real life situation. I have no military or LEO experience but I can not imagine that not sweeping anyone with a muzzle is even possible, if you're going to be 'involved'. It is further my opinion that to hold oneself to that standard is to probably eliminate any possibility of having a shot. Am I wrong?

 

[bwframe]

If you've spent much time in classes and competition, muzzle discipline becomes ingrained. You don't get away with pointing the gun at others and get called out on it if even close.

I'm sure that when pressure is on and bullets are flying that innocents might come close to being swept. The well trained good guy will have a much stronger grasp of where their muzzle needs to point, when their finger needs to be on the trigger and when not.

I'm not trying to pick on the crowd MIL/LEO crowd, but I have seen many come through these organizations with a very poor grasp of muzzle discipline. Certainly seen solid gun handlers from MIL/LEO also, but just having experience working in those agencies do not assure that.

 

[ditcherman]

If you've spent much time in classes and competition, muzzle discipline becomes ingrained. You don't get away with pointing the gun at others and get called out on it if even close.

I'm sure that when pressure is on and bullets are flying that innocents might come close to being swept. The well trained good guy will have a much stronger grasp of where their muzzle needs to point, when their finger needs to be on the trigger and when not.

I'm not trying to pick on the crowd MIL/LEO crowd, but I have seen many come through these organizations with a very poor grasp of muzzle discipline. Certainly seen solid gun handlers from MIL/LEO also, but just having experience working in those agencies do not assure that.

Totally agree with your first two paragraphs, have some time in classes and totally down with that logic and common sense.
As i stated in a previous post trigger discipline trumps muzzle discipline IMO.
I have no knowledge of your third paragraph, but it doesn't surprise me and kind of makes my point, in my mind.

 

[Coach]

I respect your opinion as a person and a trainer so I want to ask you, with your experience - Do you really expect that when a 'situation' goes down involving a bad guy and good guys with guns that no one will get swept? Not a classroom/range setting but a real life situation. I have no military or LEO experience but I can not imagine that not sweeping anyone with a muzzle is even possible, if you're going to be 'involved'. It is further my opinion that to hold oneself to that standard is to probably eliminate any possibility of having a shot. Am I wrong?

When I get to the keyboard later. I will give my thoughts. I am at baseball practice right now.

 

[Vigilant]

You just said in our friend Trapper Jim's thread on reholstering that there is never a need for a no look reholster, well here it is, apparently someone thought it more important to dial 911 than to buy a holster that didn't collapse or at least not train be to do a no look reholster.
Also for the record I can think of times the gun will go in my armpit and under my leg in the truck, but not sweeping anyone else.

No one knows what this guys holster was? This wasn’t a time for a no look reholster anyway, holster your gun, looking or not, THEN take out your phone for selfies! It was clear the threat was down, he didn’t need the firearm any longer or he shouldn’t have went to the phone. If the shooting is done, reholster take selfies, if it ain’t done, you should still be shootin and looking for cover.

 

[cedartop]

Totally agree with your first two paragraphs, have some time in classes and totally down with that logic and common sense.
As i stated in a previous post trigger discipline trumps muzzle discipline IMO.
I have no knowledge of your third paragraph, but it doesn't surprise me and kind of makes my point, in my mind.

I agree to a point. That point is where we become careless with our muzzle because "it's ok, my finger isn't on the trigger". And I know it happens because I have witnessed it. Just like we strive for great shot placement in training because it is likely to deteriorate under pressure, we only accept 100% safety practices in training.

 

[ditcherman]

I agree to a point. That point is where we become careless with our muzzle because "it's ok, my finger isn't on the trigger". And I know it happens because I have witnessed it. Just like we strive for great shot placement in training because it is likely to deteriorate under pressure, we only accept 100% safety practices in training.

Totally agree with you in a training or sporting scenario where it’s completely unnecessary to sweep someone. I only bring up sporting because that’s where I have seen it most, a coyote hunter swept about 5 of us with his rifle on New Year’s Day.

 

[Vigilant]

Totally agree with you in a training or sporting scenario where it’s completely unnecessary to sweep someone. I only bring up sporting because that’s where I have seen it most, a coyote hunter swept about 5 of us with his rifle on New Year’s Day.

Thats because he wasn’t used to it yet, he’d only taken it out of the case the day before to “sight it in”, and he wasn’t yet accustomed to its heft. By the end of huntin’ season, he’ll be a regular Kirk Freeman, then he’ll case it back up til next year.

 

[Vigilant]

You just said in our friend Trapper Jim's thread on reholstering that there is never a need for a no look reholster, well here it is, apparently someone thought it more important to dial 911 than to buy a holster that didn't collapse or at least not train be to do a no look reholster.
Also for the record I can think of times the gun will go in my armpit and under my leg in the truck, but not sweeping anyone else.

I also have to know, in what circumstances is it smarter to armpit your gun rather than holster it?

 

[ditcherman]

No one knows what this guys holster was? This wasn’t a time for a no look reholster anyway, holster your gun, looking or not, THEN take out your phone for selfies! It was clear the threat was down, he didn’t need the firearm any longer or he shouldn’t have went to the phone. If the shooting is done, reholster take selfies, if it ain’t done, you should still be shootin and looking for cover.

I don’t disagree with you if the picture you have painted is his logic. His bad. There could be other possibilities, slim chances, but as you pointed out we weren’t there. Terrible optics on his part. Maybe he’ll review his actions and learn, or be able to explain his logic.

 

[ditcherman]

I also have to know, in what circumstances is it smarter to armpit your gun rather than holster it?

If I’m at my range and don’t have a holster on, or at least no holster for the gun in my hand at the time, and need to pick up dropped mags is a good example. Others may be jumping out of a truck after pulling the gun out of its holster in storage, either to get the holster out or grab mags, earpro, gloves etc.
I am almost always alone, 98% of the time.
When others are around my behavior changes, I would unload a gun before picking up mags etc in front of others especially newbies.
Another point I have thought of that might not occur to others is that all my guns have safeties, no striker fired guns at all.

 

[ditcherman]

Thats because he wasn’t used to it yet, he’d only taken it out of the case the day before to “sight it in”, and he wasn’t yet accustomed to its heft. By the end of huntin’ season, he’ll be a regular Kirk Freeman, then he’ll case it back up til next year.

Haha, I’m sure that I don’t get the reference, it’s probably on a thread I should read somewhere but there’s so many of them!
But no, an experienced hunter and a very good shot at that.

 

[Vigilant]

Haha, I’m sure that I don’t get the reference, it’s probably on a thread I should read somewhere but there’s so many of them!
But no, an experienced hunter and a very good shot at that.

Experienced hunters and shooters doesn’t necessarily translate into safe gun handling. I’ve seen many old crotchety “I’ve been around guns all muh life” mother****ers that were the worst gun handlers I’ve ever seen. I’ve seen them sweep folks, drop the slide on a custom 1911, without mag or rounds, and then argue it dust hert thu gun I been round guns all muh life ain’t never broked one. Basically experience doesn’t always equal safety, or even good experience, if he’s been ****ed up from word go and never corrected, in his mind he’s right. But this is another bunny trail, I digress.

 

[Rick Mason]

Our church is most blessed because our volunteer head of security was the head of security for a very well-known Christian college located just blocks from downtown Chicago. He dealt for almost two decades with all the problems of having an open campus in one of the most urban areas of the country, where Christianity/Christian lifestyle and security were two different concepts that had to be reconciled daily. He's got a good team working with him.

 

[Rick Mason]

Not to sound argumentative, but sweeping and all aside, is your armpit EVER a decent place keeper for a loaded gun while your hands are busy on a cellphone?

Only if you're at church at Sun Aura Resort in Roselawn, Indiana.