Budget Hunting Rifle

[Notalentbum]

How do you effectively practice precision and or long range shooting with a lot of ammo and mediocre equipment?

I asked myself this very question a lot when I was first trying to learn precision shooting. There are so many variables! I have several ARs and I know the platform isn’t the best for precision but with bulk 55gr ammo, even the best out there can’t hold 3moa groups with a couple of mine. Put the right ammo in them and it’s good enough for any beginning shooter to learn on. It’s definitely not with bulk 55gr stuff!
Until you have a known accurate/consistent package to work with, I think you’d just be wasting ammo!

Matt

 

[two70]

It usually isn't, Mr. Fat.

.243 is plenty adequate on deer inside the range of a beginner. I think that's about 200 yards.

I don't disagree on the trigger comments re: H&R. That being said, I don't think their triggers "beat you up" unless you let them. Hell, I've shot a lot worse, and I can shoot them pretty well. It's mostly between your ears.

My main point, and I'm not saying y'all missed it, is the ammo + practice item.

If the boyo can afford a $500 rifle & scope, and still get a case of ammo to burn, great. More the merrier.


...but the ammo + dryfire in equal-or-greater amount is what is key when the chips are down. Not rifle type, and not trigger.


-Nate

Nate, the thing is that someone can get a new bolt action for very little more and sometimes even less than a used H&R. H&Rs are no longer being produced and when found are typically around $300. Henry's single shot is typically over $300, though you can probably find a CVA for less than $300. But, why would you bother when you can get a T/C Compass with a better trigger for $350 and sometimes even as low $275? Personally, I don't see why you would even do that with a budget of $800 when $400-$450 buys a Patriot with a better trigger and stock.

Sure, a terrible trigger is not that hard to overcome for an experienced shooter but even then it requires concerted effort. Why would a newer rifle shooter want to make things harder than necessary or risk encouraging bad habits? Same with a cheap stock. More practice is good thing, but only when it is good practice. More practice with a trigger so heavy that it encourages jerking and a cheap stock that encourages flinching may be better than less practice with the same rig but I doubt it is better than slightly less practice with a better rig. Bad practice rarely leads to good results.

The .243 is more than adequate for deer well beyond 200 yards WITH the right bullets. In fact the problems that could arise with a .243 occur are far more likely to occur at distances less than a 100 yards when the varmint or even cheap deer bullet they are shooting blows up. I suspect few new hunters put nearly enough thought and effort into bullet selection and I personally know way too many experienced hunters who use price as their main bullet selection criteria.

 

[natdscott]

How do you effectively practice precision and or long range shooting with a lot of ammo and mediocre equipment?

Who said anything about long range or precision? If he's a new hunter with rifles, he has no business shooting long range, and hunting ders isn't precision either.

That being said, you might be damn surprised what a $100 air rifle and about 10,000 decent pellets can get done for an 'experienced' 'precision' shooter.

 

[two70]

Who said anything about long range or precision? If he's a new hunter with rifles, he has no business shooting long range, and hunting ders isn't precision either.

That being said, you might be damn surprised what a $100 air rifle and about 10,000 decent pellets can get done for an 'experienced' 'precision' shooter.

I completely agree here on all accounts. I think the idea that hunting requires extreme precision is a common misconception. Many people seem to think of hunting as being most similar to long range target shooting when it actually is a hybrid that leans more toward action shooting with a few target shooting elements thrown in.

 

[Mgderf]

I asked myself this very question a lot when I was first trying to learn precision shooting. There are so many variables! I have several ARs and I know the platform isn’t the best for precision but with bulk 55gr ammo, even the best out there can’t hold 3moa groups with a couple of mine. Put the right ammo in them and it’s good enough for any beginning shooter to learn on. It’s definitely not with bulk 55gr stuff!
Until you have a known accurate/consistent package to work with, I think you’d just be wasting ammo!

Matt

"Practice makes perfect"
That adage has been around MUCH longer than "precision" rifles, and was just as applicable at the time.

Kentucky rifles, muskets, could hardly be considered "precision", even though they were some of the best of the day.
Still, with plenty of practice, and likely home-made ammunition, not to mention powder of questionable quality, and these guys were making 300 yard shots on deer and men.

I know many shooters today that struggle to pull off a 300 yard shot unless they possess the very best equipment.

My dad taught me 50 years ago, "If you don't have what you need, use what you have."
A good percentage of the population probably can't really afford a "precision rifle", especially if it's only to be used to hunt deer.
A thousand dollars for gun/glass/ammo/targets/time, for 2 weeks a year is pretty steep in most novice shooters eyes.

Kentucky windage was not a joke, and many can still use it effectively.
"A man's got to know his (and his equipment's) limitations".

 

[natdscott]

Nate, the thing is that someone can get a new bolt action for very little more and sometimes even less than a used H&R. H&Rs are no longer being produced and when found are typically around $300. Henry's single shot is typically over $300, though you can probably find a CVA for less than $300. But, why would you bother when you can get a T/C Compass with a better trigger for $350 and sometimes even as low $275? Personally, I don't see why you would even do that with a budget of $800 when $400-$450 buys a Patriot with a better trigger and stock.

I think I may have mislead some of you to think that I believe the H&R is a nice rifle with a good trigger. I don't think that.

I was really just trying to fully frame the strength of my opinion of adequate ammunition for training, in lieu of the newest greatest neato budget rifle or scope. Lotsa guys with heavy wallets that go to their deer blind with Beanland or GAP rifles that can't shoot for ****.

I didn't even know the H&R was out of production. Really don't care, and to be honest, it's not much loss.

Sure, a terrible trigger is not that hard to overcome for an experienced shooter but even then it requires concerted effort. Why would a newer rifle shooter want to make things harder than necessary or risk encouraging bad habits? Same with a cheap stock. More practice is good thing, but only when it is good practice. More practice with a trigger so heavy that it encourages jerking and a cheap stock that encourages flinching may be better than less practice with the same rig but I doubt it is better than slightly less practice with a better rig. Bad practice rarely leads to good results.

Fair points, and I will totally concede the stock thing. Tupperware should have stayed in food containers. Good synthetic and fiber stocks are better than walnut , or even laminate, but "good" and "cheap" do not go together when it comes to synthetic rifle stocks.

I also don't disagree that a nice trigger is nice. But heavy triggers don't lead to jerking. Lack of adequate preparation through practice and target panic lead to jerking.

A ton of the internet thinks you need a 1 lb trigger to shoot good groups, while I submit that Miculek--and many, many other shooters--are proof positive that that is complete farse until such time as you are literally discussing Benchrest (the sport, not the past-time or the crutch), metric bullseye targets, or anything else that requires average performances to be below 1/4 Minute.

The difference in triggering ability between myself and somebody like Brandon Green is, of course, practice.

We're not tryina make this guy Jerry or David or Carl or Tony, but the finer points of how those kind of shooters got to where they are were learned through persistence and determination. Universally true.

The .243 is more than adequate for deer well beyond 200 yards WITH the right bullets. In fact the problems that could arise with a .243 occur are far more likely to occur at distances less than a 100 yards when the varmint or even cheap deer bullet they are shooting blows up. I suspect few new hunters put nearly enough thought and effort into bullet selection and I personally know way too many experienced hunters who use price as their main bullet selection criteria.

No doubt about that. I would happily take the right 300 yard shot with my 18" .243. But that's about a hard line for me on a deer. 85 GameKing "universal load" that also gets primary use on coyotes. It is effective on deer, and nuclear on coyotes. Is it a 400 yard deer rifle? No. But I don't believe that a normal length .243 is a 1/4 mile deer rifle. 26-30" tube with 100+ grain bullets.. maybe. Don't know...don't have interest in using the .243 on the range at Atterbury.

 

[two70]

I think I may have mislead some of you to think that I believe the H&R is a nice rifle with a good trigger. I don't think that.

I was really just trying to fully frame the strength of my opinion of adequate ammunition for training, in lieu of the newest greatest neato budget rifle or scope. Lotsa guys with heavy wallets that go to their deer blind with Beanland or GAP rifles that can't shoot for ****.

I didn't even know the H&R was out of production. Really don't care, and to be honest, it's not much loss.



Fair points, and I will totally concede the stock thing. Tupperware should have stayed in food containers. Good synthetic and fiber stocks are better than walnut , or even laminate, but "good" and "cheap" do not go together when it comes to synthetic rifle stocks.

I also don't disagree that a nice trigger is nice. But heavy triggers don't lead to jerking. Lack of adequate preparation through practice and target panic lead to jerking.

A ton of the internet thinks you need a 1 lb trigger to shoot good groups, while I submit that Miculek--and many, many other shooters--are proof positive that that is complete farse until such time as you are literally discussing Benchrest (the sport, not the past-time or the crutch), metric bullseye targets, or anything else that requires average performances to be below 1/4 Minute.

The difference in triggering ability between myself and somebody like Brandon Green is, of course, practice.

We're not tryina make this guy Jerry or David or Carl or Tony, but the finer points of how those kind of shooters got to where they are were learned through persistence and determination. Universally true.



No doubt about that. I would happily take the right 300 yard shot with my 18" .243. But that's about a hard line for me on a deer. 85 GameKing "universal load" that also gets primary use on coyotes. It is effective on deer, and nuclear on coyotes. Is it a 400 yard deer rifle? No. But I don't believe that a normal length .243 is a 1/4 mile deer rifle. 26-30" tube with 100+ grain bullets.. maybe. Don't know...don't have interest in using the .243 on the range at Atterbury.

I think we're just talking past each other. I get what you are saying and I agree, mostly. I think that the disconnect is that no one is advocating a high end rifle with a 1 lb. trigger pull, certainly not me and I'm pretty certain I recommended higher priced ones than anyone else. Instead, what some of us are suggesting, myself included, is that the there is little point in buying bottom of the barrel equipment, purely on price. To me a budget rifle is not the cheapest rifle possible, it is the one that provides the best value on the features you want/need in your price range. Fortunately, an $800 budget buys a pretty good rifle with a decent 3-5 lb. trigger, a decent scope and mounts with some left over for more ammo than most will shoot in practice or should shoot int the time remaining prior to firearms season.

You are far braver with a .243 than I am. Murphy has been an all to frequent hunting companion of mine so I tend to go with either bonded or monometal bullets whether I need them or not just to keep him away.

 

[natdscott]

I think we're just talking past each other. I get what you are saying and I agree, mostly.

Probly so. I've done that before.

...with some left over for more ammo than most will shoot in practice or should shoot int the time remaining prior to firearms season.

That's a valid point as well. And it leads me to this, for anybody still reading, now or in the future, and there's not a lot of delicate way to put this:

October is not the time to begin thinking and planning about der huntin in the fall wit a new raffle. That time was about May, unless you are already very experienced.

I'm not saying it can't be done successfully, but I am saying it is better to plan further ahead if possible.

You are far braver with a .243 than I am. Murphy has been an all to frequent hunting companion of mine so I tend to go with either bonded or monometal bullets whether I need them or not just to keep him away.

Well, like I said, 300's a pretty hard line, for a standing broadside. The ~170 lb doe (chubby old lady) I shot last year at 196 was fine, though not DRT. I judged wind pretty slowly and carefully, as I had about 15 mph at 7 o'clock on a rainy evening kinda like today. Being prone in a fencerow, it's not like I didn't have time to sit and ponder and range the 11 deer in the field, and I was just grocery shopping for the food pantry anyway.

Whatever reason, and I still don't know why, that bullet landed about 2" further downwind than I asked it to land, though elevation was waterline just fine. I thought it looked good-and-square in the scope, but it truly WAS as clear a broadside as any I've ever shot, being that it went in between the same # rib on both sides. I think bullet performance was "acceptable", but being honest, that bullet would have done better if it hit a rib on that shot.

And you might be right. She didn't bang flop, not that that is always expected, but it could have performed better, and there is very little doubt that heavier rifles in the .27-.33 range afford a lot more margin for error at range.

I think the Gameking is a tougher bullet than you're thinking though...I haven't seen it NOT exit anything yet. Then again, I refuse marginal shots. Absolutely refuse them, unless it is an animal that the horsepower of the rifle eclipses many times over. Such as a coyote presenting a less ideal angle. (Oh well. Bang.)

So yes, it bears careful thought taking the .243 out to very much distance on a deer unless you have a rifle and load specifically developed for it...and if you're going to try for 400+ yard deer, why not just shoot a cartridge big enough to afford some margin of safety out there.

Coyote: well, notsomuch. I just can't figure out what's wrong with all my hides though...

 

[Bapak2ja]

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[bwframe]

Who said anything about long range or precision? If he's a new hunter with rifles, he has no business shooting long range, and hunting ders isn't precision either.


That being said, you might be damn surprised what a $100 air rifle and about 10,000 decent pellets can get done for an 'experienced' 'precision' shooter.

OK, now we are going places. Air rifle purchase with lots o pellets, rather than spewing all the hunting rifle ammo away. Round after round down range, without understanding why they landed where they did.

How does one learn from their practice with the air rifle or the like?

Isn't a hundred yards, minute of vitals, a long range precision shot for a totally inexperienced new hunter?

 

[natdscott]

lol!

Shoot at the 10m Air target, and I assure you, it’ll learn ya!




There’s not a shooter on the planet that can shoot 10’s on it every shot.

The “Ten” is 0.5mm at 10 meters. That’s, uh, 1/20th MIL.... or about 0.17 MOA.

If a shooter can stand on their hind legs and even shoot for nines on that target, they are quite a trigger operator.

 

[Trapper Jim]

I'm currently researching a budget bolt-action hunting rifle and have come across the Savage 110 and the Howa 1500 both in .308. Does anyone have any personal recommendations of these two rifles or another budget hunting rifle? TIA

Remington 700 package deal on 308. With scope $379. I shoot under 1 inch out of the box with mine. walmart

 

[bwframe]

lol!

Shoot at the 10m Air target, and I assure you, it’ll learn ya!




There’s not a shooter on the planet that can shoot 10’s on it every shot.

The “Ten” is 0.5mm at 10 meters. That’s, uh, 1/20th MIL.... or about 0.17 MOA.

If a shooter can stand on their hind legs and even shoot for nines on that target, they are quite a trigger operator.

So people just get better by doing the same thing over and over without direction? No one gets frustrated and gives up?

 

[natdscott]

bwframe, let’s not be obtuse. Let’s also retire this to another thread if we want to further debate training regimens, not one about a huntin rifle.

 

[Mgderf]

bwframe, let’s not be obtuse. Let’s also retire this to another thread if we want to further debate training regimens, not one about a huntin rifle.

 

[bwframe]

Sure thing. Just post us a link...

 

[Tactically Fat]

lol!

Shoot at the 10m Air target, and I assure you, it’ll learn ya!




There’s not a shooter on the planet that can shoot 10’s on it every shot.

The “Ten” is 0.5mm at 10 meters. That’s, uh, 1/20th MIL.... or about 0.17 MOA.

If a shooter can stand on their hind legs and even shoot for nines on that target, they are quite a trigger operator.

Have you seen what the JROTC guys and gals can do at their competitions? Ever been to Camp Perry and watched? It's amazing!

One of my wife's cousin's kids was in Navy JROTC in HS. Their shooting team was national champion Navy JROTC shooters a few years ago. They came up from central FL to FRIGID Camp Perry - and availed themselves quite well. I don't know if they won overall champs - but they were for sure up there.

 

[ccha8778]

UPDATE: Thanks everyone for the feedback. I ended up purchasing a used Thompson Center Compass with scope for $325, I've added a sling, bipod and muzzle brake for a total investment of just over $400. Time to hunt!!

 

[natdscott]

UPDATE: Thanks everyone for the feedback. I ended up purchasing a used Thompson Center Compass with scope for $325, I've added a sling, bipod and muzzle brake for a total investment of just over $400. Time to hunt!!

What cartridge did you go with?

Safety points about rifles:

1) Keep the muzzle in the dirt, and if there's fur under the crosshair, but sky above-and-below, that's not a shot.

2) If a "good shot" on a der seems like it might be questionable for some other reason, I assure you, it IS questionable.

3) Those maximum ranges listed on the boxes...they aren't made up. There's only ever about 30 degrees between you and a life of regret.



Observe. THINK. Shoot.

-Nate

 

[mcapo]

I am late to show and the topic has moved on but to the OP....

I have a Howa 1500 HLR with a surprisingly nice Bell & Carlson stock in 6.5. It consistently shoots 1/2 moa (and sometimes better) out to 600 yards with factory ammo....also have a couple Weatherby Vanguards (same action) with similar accuracy but haven't stretched them past 100 or so.