Another no knock warrant goes bad

[UltraRick]

4 N.J. police officers shot executing warrant - USATODAY.com

People bust in at 2:30 am and receive gun fire. I am afraid I would have reacted the same...

 

[inxs]

I agree, you serve a search warrant at the door, not the foot of their bed. Too many good people dying because of this....

 

[roscott]

What a mess. That really sucks.

I can only hope the homeowner really was a BG and those officers didn't die for nothing.

 

[femurphy77]

I'm not a cop and haven't ever been in this type of situation but I would think that a no-knock warrant in the middle of the night would increase the danger to all, many many times over. I understand the reasoning behind them but you're going into unfamiliar territory in the dark after what must be a really bad dude, um, no thanks. LEO, have you ever been part of a no-knock middle of the night warrant? What were/are your feelings on their risk factor versus element of surprise?

 

[UltraRick]

What a mess. That really sucks.

I can only hope the homeowner really was a BG and those officers didn't die for nothing.

No fatalities - 2 were shot in their vest - no injury, 1 in the foot, and one in the face.

 

[dsol]

What a mess. That really sucks.

I can only hope the homeowner really was a BG and those officers didn't die for nothing.

Two were seriously wounded and expected to recover, the other two sustained minor injuries due to their vests.

 

[indoorsoccerfrea]

No-knock warrants are just a bad idea...regardless of whether or not the occupant of the house is guilty, if they have guns readily at hand for whatever reason, be it self-defense or otherwise, a no-knock will result in a gun fight. This isn't even touching the unconstitutionality of them.

Does anyone know if no-knocks are used in Indiana?

 

[Disposable Heart]

No knocks are bad, dont get me wrong. It serves to say that they injure far more folks than needed and are, in lots of cases, reckless policy.

But, help me out here. From the tone of the posts, it sounds like a "I would shoot the cops too" but the guy living in the home was being investigated for criminal activity. So, who is the criminal in this shooting case? The guy being raided for drug/gun charges or the cops breaking in and defending themselves?

I understand that there are alot of "mis-knocks" performed and innocent folks get killed in these situations. Statistically, the chances of this happening are astronomical however. They do happen, yes. But, think about it for a second. How many are "mis-knocks"? My chances of being hit by a meteor are about par with this. They are, unfortunately, compounded by the reckless (in my book) policy of no-knock. But this story, when read throughly, is a criminal shooting at the police. It seems like given the nature of the shoot (down a staircase), any warrant serving would have probably ended in gunfire. But folks here on the forum are saying they would have done the same. How many criminals post here?

 

[Disposable Heart]

Also, another issue. If it is a "mis-knock", then what? I hear a crash of my door in the middle of the night, I am NOT going to go look for trouble, gun in hand. I am staying put, call 911 and defend myself if necessary. I would be clearly identifying myself as an armed person. If its a criminal, have my TV, it costs FAR less than my life. When I step outside my bedroom door, my chances of success in that situation drop DRAMATICALLY. If its the cops, why compund the chances of being shot by walking out with a gun, blazing away without IDing the potential target? ID myself as an armed individual behind a closed door, I think they will ID themselves as Police, to which I would try to talk through the door. Saves me a hole in my head.

Plus, I dont really see LEOs as the shoot at everything that moves for a warrant. Touchy? Maybe. But not an erradication squad mentality.

 

[ATF Consumer]

the guy living in the home was being investigated for criminal activity. So, who is the criminal in this shooting case? The guy being raided for drug/gun charges or the cops breaking in and defending themselves?

Couple of thoughts here...

1st - he was being investigated, and raided on drug/gun charges...not convictions...so he has not been proved to be guilty, so is still innocent and rightfully justified in protecting his home from intruders.

2nd - cops break into his home, intruding, so the home owner has a right to defend himself...I suppose the offenders want to also defend themselves

 

[mrjarrell]

Actually, DH there are more bad no knocks than meteor strikes, by far. Hoosier native and writer for Reason, Radley Balko has covered many of these over the years. They're more common than we'd like to think and they turn out bad, more often than not.

 

[Bill of Rights]

The big problem with no-knocks is that if you live at 1345 Whatever street and the warrant is mistyped but should have been 1435 Whatever, guess whose door is getting kicked in?

At that point, who is in the wrong? Before you answer, consider that some home invaders have taken to wearing all-black, coming in in the middle of the night while screaming, "POLICE OFFICER! GET ON THE GROUND!"

By the time it's all sorted out that they aren't really cops (or that they are!), someone is hurt and may be wrongfully dead.

And as a medic, I've been called to stand by in the area that a no-knock was being served, so yes, they do happen in Indiana.

If the perp is that dangerous, turn off the water, trap the sewer, surround the house, and smoke them out. If all that is not necessary, how can it be justified to go in with rifles, ready to shoot whoever is inside?

Please note that I ask this in the desire to understand, not to bash LEOs. This thread has, so far, avoided that thread-locking problem, and I would like to commend those who have avoided doing so. I understand if the LEOs on here are, pardon the pun, "gunshy" of answering on the public forum, so if you choose to answer me via PM, I would welcome the info.

Thanks very much, and as always,

Blessings,
Bill

 

[No Time to Shoot]

Also, another issue. If it is a "mis-knock", then what? I hear a crash of my door in the middle of the night, I am NOT going to go look for trouble, gun in hand. I am staying put, call 911 and defend myself if necessary. I would be clearly identifying myself as an armed person. If its a criminal, have my TV, it costs FAR less than my life. When I step outside my bedroom door, my chances of success in that situation drop DRAMATICALLY. If its the cops, why compund the chances of being shot by walking out with a gun, blazing away without IDing the potential target? ID myself as an armed individual behind a closed door, I think they will ID themselves as Police, to which I would try to talk through the door. Saves me a hole in my head.

Plus, I dont really see LEOs as the shoot at everything that moves for a warrant. Touchy? Maybe. But not an erradication squad mentality.

You probably don't have a child in a different room in your house to defend as well. If my door crashes in I don't care who it is I'm shooting first. I have a wife and daughter to defend. No time for identification or questions. This is not a knock on LEOs it's just my opinion.

That was very bad judgement on their part kicking in a guys door at 2:30 in the morning.

I hope the officers make a full recovery.

 

[roscott]

Two were seriously wounded and expected to recover, the other two sustained minor injuries due to their vests.

Wow. You're right. I definitely thought I read that he died, but I was wrong.
Good call.

 

[ATF Consumer]

Also, another issue. If it is a "mis-knock", then what? I hear a crash of my door in the middle of the night, I am NOT going to go look for trouble, gun in hand. I am staying put, call 911 and defend myself if necessary. I would be clearly identifying myself as an armed person. If its a criminal, have my TV, it costs FAR less than my life. When I step outside my bedroom door, my chances of success in that situation drop DRAMATICALLY. If its the cops, why compund the chances of being shot by walking out with a gun, blazing away without IDing the potential target? ID myself as an armed individual behind a closed door, I think they will ID themselves as Police, to which I would try to talk through the door. Saves me a hole in my head.

Plus, I dont really see LEOs as the shoot at everything that moves for a warrant. Touchy? Maybe. But not an erradication squad mentality.

You may only have your wife to protect, others have other family members in the house that also need protecting, so I would be out of the bedroom as quickly as possible with shotgun in hand, already chambered ready to pull the trigger at the intruders. I would not give the intruders any warning of my being armed...why would you tell them that? If they were cops, they have darn sure better have already identified themselves as such...

 

[Bigum1969]

I think the reason they execute these no-knock warrants is try and surprise the bad guys. I don't have any law enforcement background, so I really don't know what the benefit-risk analysis of these types of raids would be.

 

[techres]

The article says "suspect" which means they are covering up or meant to get him. Hopefully this was a real bad guy and perhaps it could have gone worse and thus helped officer safety.

If it was not, I kinda would have expected to know immediately.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Actually, my whole thing is inregards to the OP's "I would do that too" concept. Maybe some expounding upon that?

 

[Jack Ryan]

No knocks are bad, dont get me wrong. It serves to say that they injure far more folks than needed and are, in lots of cases, reckless policy.

But, help me out here. From the tone of the posts, it sounds like a "I would shoot the cops too" but the guy living in the home was being investigated for criminal activity. So, who is the criminal in this shooting case? The guy being raided for drug/gun charges or the cops breaking in and defending themselves?

No one I know of.

In this country you are innocent until proven guilty and you have the right to be safe in your own home and with a reasonable expectation of privacy. You also have the right to defend your home and person from invasion by unknown attackers in the middle of the night.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Also, if I did have kids, they would not be in a house set up where I would have to go clear across the place to get to them. If they can't be across the hall or similar, then I am not going to move into that house.

As for criminals IDing themselves as police, I revert to Plan A. Yell through the door. They will not have the patience police will have and will break in or just take what they will and leave.