Afghanistan

[KellyinAvon]

I don't know. The Russians didn't fare any better than we did there, and they were a lot more ruthless.

Special Forces and Airpower worked for both the USSR and the US. It's when it went conventional the quagmire began.

We fought to a stalemate in the ROK in 1953. 35 years later the Summer Olympics were hosted in Seoul. Does anybody think this bunch could host the 2036 games? Or the 2136 games?

 

[bobzilla]

I don't know. The Russians didn't fare any better than we did there, and they were a lot more ruthless.

I was going to say the same thing. They pretty much played their game and still lost.

 

[DadSmith]

It depends on the will of the government to use all the resources at its means and completely disregard the lives of all their people even the ones who disagree with the, vs the will of the people with rifles to disregard their own lives, and the lives of their loved ones, for the sake of tomorrow.

That is spot on. If the government is willing to drop nuclear weapons, cluster bombs, napalm etc, on its own people and a military corrupt enough to do it then yes they would most likely win. I'm sure politicians in DC would be willing to do just that on their own people but wouldn't in Afghanistan or Vietnam.

 

[printcraft]

Special Forces and Airpower worked for both the USSR and the US. It's when it went conventional the quagmire began.

We fought to a stalemate in the ROK in 1953. 35 years later the Summer Olympics were hosted in Seoul. Does anybody think this bunch could host the 2036 games? Or the 2136 games?

Well if goat ****ing and beheading become olympic level events... maybe.

 

[jwamplerusa]

On 9/11 I was in the Maintenance & Engineering headquarters of the 10th largest U.S. Air-carrier. The seat mile factories of my (once upon a time) profession were used to attack my Nation by 19 c********** murderers from the armpit of the world. Not ONE additional American's life was worth theirs.

I started to write what I have said before and actually think should have been done on about 9/13/2001, but decided in today's world I was better served by not putting it in writing.

Suffice it to say the USA had the ability to send an appropriate message which would have had the needed effect in a day with no loss of more American lives.

Everything this nation has done since 9/11 has primarily been done to feed the Military / Industrial complex. Read President Eisenhower's farewell speech (the Military / Industrial complex speech) in the context of his experience from 1941 through the end of his Presidency. Then consider what has occurred since. Personally I am convinced that he was trying to warn the American people that their elected servants had become subjects of the Nation's largest defense contractors.

Want to change the trajectory of our Nation? Turn over our elected Federal servants at a high enough rate to minimize the influence of non-citizens (businesses, foreign governments, etc.) upon those servants of the people. Which is why I wrote this.

A little over half of U.S. citizens voted for a Presidential candidate which at least had a modicum of goodwill toward his Nation in 2016. The missing piece was to elect enough like minded individuals to the Legislative branch to make a difference. "We" need to fix that! The RINOs have to go. The Communists must be exposed and defeated.

If a correction does not start in 2022, we will all get to live 1984's dystopian future with continuous regional wars till we die. I really don't want that to be my future, or the future of my children.

 

[foszoe]

Well if goat ****ing and beheading become olympic level events... maybe.

The first one would probably get higher ratings than anything the Olympics achieved this year. Sad thing is many who live in HOAs wouldn't be able to practice.

 

[rob63]

I will state up front that I am talking completely out of my hat, I have not studied the region, the conflict, or anything else that qualifies me to say anything about it.

That said, just a guess based on what I see of the idiots in our government. I bet we spent a great deal of blood, time, and treasure attempting to build a society acceptable to us when our goal should have simply been building a society acceptable to them that wasn't hostile to us.

 

[bobzilla]

I will state up front that I am talking completely out of my hat, I have not studied the region, the conflict, or anything else that qualifies me to say anything about it.

That said, just a guess based on what I see of the idiots in our government. I bet we spent a great deal of blood, time, and treasure attempting to build a society acceptable to us when our goal should have simply been building a society acceptable to them that wasn't hostile to us.

I think it was more of a case that they were fine with whatever.... and we were trying to make it like us.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Well if goat ****ing and beheading become olympic level events... maybe.

Still better than race walking.

 

[gregr]

I think it was more of a case that they were fine with whatever.... and we were trying to make it like us.

Look, when we heard of incidents where "Afghan soldiers" were turning on and shooting U.S. troops, and when we saw that they rejected growing crops as the U.S. trained them to do and they only wanted to keep growing their drugs, we KNEW we weren`t going to change any hearts or minds. But, we still needed to keep the taliban out and kill as many of those bastards as possible.

 

[bobzilla]

Look, when we heard of incidents where "Afghan soldiers" were turning on and shooting U.S. troops, and when we saw that they rejected growing crops as the U.S. trained them to do and they only wanted to keep growing their drugs, we KNEW we weren`t going to change any hearts or minds. But, we still needed to keep the taliban out and kill as many of those bastards as possible.

Look, if had been my choice the whole f'n place would be a glowing glass factory.

 

[foszoe]

Still better than race walking.

I think that depends on whether you are the "athlete" or the goat.

 

[printcraft]

Still better than race walking.

I mean, curling is an olympic event...

 

[printcraft]

uncle joe called it...

 

[KellyinAvon]

Look, if had been my choice the whole f'n place would be a glowing glass factory.

When I was VERY new to the USAF I heard the phrase, "nuke em til they glow, use their arses for runway lights." It would require a lot of will to do that, and I don't see Harry Truman walking through that door.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I will state up front that I am talking completely out of my hat, I have not studied the region, the conflict, or anything else that qualifies me to say anything about it.

That said, just a guess based on what I see of the idiots in our government. I bet we spent a great deal of blood, time, and treasure attempting to build a society acceptable to us when our goal should have simply been building a society acceptable to them that wasn't hostile to us.

Short version: Warlords and tribes have always excercised sway over more of the land that a map says is Afghanistan than a central goverment, homegrown or installed from abroad, has. It's not a nation in the way we think of a nation, has always successfully resisted efforts to make it such, and is not likely to ever become such.

Much longer version:

I've done a lot more of a deep dive into the ME than Afghanistan, but some of the same issues apply. A lack of a national identity plays in. Even before the Cold War and with home grown monarchs, large swathes of the population resisted any sort of central government or modernization programs. Outside of a few urbanized areas, the population seemed happy to live as they'd lived for centuries, as illiterate farmers. (literacy rates are usually cited at less than 1 in 3 being able to read).

Then Cold War and Soviet influence. Again, much of the population resists any sort of change or national identity. Soviet supported governments last for awhile, but it's debatable how much of the geography of the country they actually controlled, and even more debatable how much they controlled without the permission of the local warlord/tribal leader. Soviet supported gov't outlasts the Soviets, which lasts until the 1990s.

Then in the Clinton years, the Taliban was able to overthrow the last Soviet supported government and institute a hard line repressive theology. They had the same issues everyone else had, tribal warfare still continued, not much got done without fighting or working out an agreement with the local warlords. The Taliban sought to get along with the West and get diplomatic recognition. Probably because they figured the now-not-Soviets would be back eventually and even in post Cold War days you needed to buddy up with either Russia or with the West if you wanted international standing and access to aid (or an ally against your internal enemies). They took some steps like reducing global heroin production by stopping opium trades but didn't really have much to negotiate with because, unlike the ME, they don't have natural resources we are interested in. But things were going ok-ish.

Then you get the immediate run up to 9/11. We wanted Osama Bin Laden for crimes and they wouldn't give him up, largely due to a cultural taboo that required protecting those under your hospitality even if you wouldn't lift a finger to save their life once they left your hospitality. The US, via the UN, gets punitive sanctions on the Taliban, relations obviously sour, 9/11 happens, Taliban still won't give up Osama and now also won't give up Al-Qaeda, and the US invades.

US partners, just like everyone else had, with local warlords. Warlords, just like always, are out for themselves and theirs first because there is still no sense of national identity and there's now not only a power vacuum but an immensely powerful military you can wield against your rival warlords by convincing your ally-of-the-day that the other warlord is Taliban. They direct us to destroy their rivals and we do. Some even warn Taliban fighters to leave prior to bombings. One can legitimately question if they were pro-Taliban or if they didn't want the US to win too quickly and leave, depriving them of their ability to wield our immense power against other warlords.

Then mission creep, and frankly I'm not remotely qualified to talk about what all efforts we undertook in the name of nation building but obviously it hasn't stuck. And for the same reasons that literally nobody has built a powerful central government in Afghanistan. They don't want it. The urban areas will have a king or a president or a supreme council or whatever, but the vast majority of the land is populated by people with no concept of a modern "nation" as a desirable outcome. It's tribalism and warlords and constantly shifting alliances. That keeps them forever weak, unable to build a nation and project power outwardly, unable to support modern infrastructure, etc.

Afghanistan will apparently never be a nation, and will never be the threat a nation is. They are forever stuck in warlord mode. Which, frankly, makes them less dangerous than a nation like Iran who *can* be lead by a central government, who *can* support a modern infrastructure, and who *can* do things like develop nuclear weapons and the capability of delivering them.

That's just kind of my "guy who's done some reading on the topic" thoughts.

 

[PistolBob]

uncle joe called it...

His legacy will be one of bloodshed and fail.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

His legacy will be one of bloodshed and fail.

As will everyone else's to at least Bill Clinton, who had the opportunity to take out OBL after the USS Cole but declined to do so. One can, and I have elsewhere, made the argument that this whole conversation would have never taken place if Clinton hadn't been such a useless POS. He was the last one with a "good" option vs just "less bad" ones, IMO. I'll leave it at that before I get spun up as my hatred of Clinton will start rolling in.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

As will everyone else's to at least Bill Clinton, who had the opportunity to take out OBL after the USS Cole but declined to do so. One can, and I have elsewhere, made the argument that this whole conversation would have never taken place if Clinton hadn't been such a useless POS. He was the last one with a "good" option vs just "less bad" ones, IMO. I'll leave it at that before I get spun up as my hatred of Clinton will start rolling in.

Careful!!!!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Careful!!!! View attachment 153022

"He died doing what he loved. Eating popcorn and hating Bill Clinton."

Actually, that'd make a great obituary. Not even joking. My wife wouldn't go for it, but I can probably talk my son into getting it done.