A General Lack of Civility

[theturtle06]

To All,

I agree with the overall trend of ideas here. I think it comes to a lack of respect for another person with whom you may totally disagree but still like as a person.

I LIKE President Obama. I really do. I think he means well and wants to do the best for the United States. I LIKE President Bush. I did. I think that he meant to do the best he could for America while in office. I could sit down with either one of these fine gentlemen and have a beer (or two) and talk all about life and politics. I also disagree with both of them on many fiscal and social agendas. I would let each one of them know I believe they are leading us down a path that is going to cripple these United States in the long run.

I wish that more of us could learn to disagree and still like a person for who they are.

Many folks I know would be classified as very "conservative republicans." This would include most of my family and old friends. I have many friends who would be generally classified as "liberal democrats." I have a lot of fun with each. There is no person or group with which I will agree with 100% OR disagree with 100%. Not happening. To use an olde quote: "a broke clock is right twice a day."

I think that part of the problem is that we isolate ourselves amongst people that almost always agree with us. That goes for both liberals and conservatives. Interacting respectfully with a group or person that is opposite of us in thinking can cause us to question our own beliefs and ideas. This is, for most people, very uncomfortable. I think because we don't like to "loose." What we fail to realize is that sometimes the person we are disagreeing with is "correct" and we miss a learning opportunity. Maybe it is our ego. Maybe we get so wrapped up in being right we cannot question why we might be wrong, because that would mean mommy and daddy and aunt Susan and uncle Al are all wrong too. Heaven forbid!

Sometimes I like loosing an argument. It causes me to rethink my position and either a) change my position, or b) rethink my position and articulate it better the next time I cover the same issue.

I do think the internet has contributed to the decline of civility. It allows us each one to hide behind a screen safe in our own homes and really say things that are cruel and hurtful without having to witness the repercussions of our own words. What percentage the internet is at fault? Well, we can all argue about that...

Regards,

Doug

You said this better than I ever could have wished to. You and I are in essentially the same boat and what you said here is good stuff for everyone.

 

[Que]

Good post and I totally agree with you. However, anyone who follows this forum for a while will notice two things: 1) everybody is pro-guns and 2) the majority of the members are politically conservative in their views, although not necessarily in lifestyle. That said, there is room for disagreement, but one cannot be offended when his political opinions is vehemently opposed by the majority and sometimes in a disrespectful way. I'm not saying that it's right, but we all have the choice to join in or opt out of certain discussions.

Like I always say, the internet is an invisible form of "man up". What I mean by that is most people who are very demonstrative and vocal on the internet are not that way in person; they only say certain things in this protective environment. That doesn't mean that they are wrong, but probably just not as committed to their view as they believe and most likely are followers more than leaders. I was taught to never say anything behind a persons back that I wouldn't say in their face and never say anything in anybody's face that I would not say to my mother. So, I choose to show respect on the internet as well as in person, but that is my personal choice.

 

[theweakerbrother]

Interesting observations!

And here I was beginning to think I was "outgrowing" INGO. But maybe I'm just a p*ssy.

Burl, I hardly got that impression from you when I met you at the last AR build party. Haha!


To the OP...

I think that when society stops trying to be gentlemen and ladies that it is barely worth being a part of.

A gentleman isn't someone who uses facial cream, gets his back waxed or spends more money on his haircut than on his work gloves... a gentleman is someone who goes out of his way to make everyone in the room feel comfortable. It's not that he lacks the ability to whup some serious arse, it's that he knows when it is appropriate to do so.

Many people in society think that the only tool in their toolbox they need is a hammer. A gentleman realizes what tool and when to use it. Sometimes a hammer is required.

Respect is often demanded but rarely is it deserved.

This is just my two cents.

 

[HICKMAN]

all i can say is:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKpQRjj_WbU]YouTube - Billy Currington - People Are Crazy[/ame]

 

[LCPer]

Burl, I hardly got that impression from you when I met you at the last AR build party. Haha!


To the OP...

I think that when society stops trying to be gentlemen and ladies that it is barely worth being a part of.

A gentleman isn't someone who uses facial cream, gets his back waxed or spends more money on his haircut than on his work gloves... a gentleman is someone who goes out of his way to make everyone in the room feel comfortable. It's not that he lacks the ability to whup some serious arse, it's that he knows when it is appropriate to do so.

Many people in society think that the only tool in their toolbox they need is a hammer. A gentleman realizes what tool and when to use it. Sometimes a hammer is required.

Respect is often demanded but rarely is it deserved.

This is just my two cents.

I was raised to believe that respect was to be earned. I was told if I wanted someone to respect me it wasn't automatically something I would receive but I must be deserving of it from those whom I interact and vice-versa. That's my

 

[printcraft]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrV0c9ETnWo]YouTube - Aretha Franklin Respect[/ame]

 

[SavageEagle]

I was raised to believe that respect was to be earned. I was told if I wanted someone to respect me it wasn't automatically something I would receive but I must be deserving of it from those whom I interact and vice-versa. That's my

I was raised the same way. However, I'm of the thinking that everyone deserves my respect until they do something otherwise. Same with trust. Although I never fully trust anyone any more cause of past experience.

Too often people consider other people a way to get what they want. Think about it. How many relationships with people have you had that were beneficial in one way or another and how many were not? Most people treat others of the mindset of "What can I gain from this relationship?". I don't do that, but most people do. I've been used enough in my life to know the difference.

 

[LCPer]

I was raised the same way. However, I'm of the thinking that everyone deserves my respect until they do something otherwise. Same with trust. Although I never fully trust anyone any more cause of past experience.

Too often people consider other people a way to get what they want. Think about it. How many relationships with people have you had that were beneficial in one way or another and how many were not? Most people treat others of the mindset of "What can I gain from this relationship?". I don't do that, but most people do. I've been used enough in my life to know the difference.

I agree with the fact that everyone is to be respected as a human being. But a bit of caution is worth taking with some.

 

[Prometheus]

I won't make any apologies for the fact I am LIVID over the theft of my liberties and money by both the right and the left.

The time for beating around the bush is over. I'm calling the traitors and thieves exactly what they are.

You want my money to redistribute wealth via a ponzi tax scheme? You are a thief!

You want my liberties in exchange for some BS alleged 'security'? You are a traitor!

Someone who puts a gun to you and demands money is a thief! It doesn't matter if they use a person with a badge to take it. Theft is theft.

I've had it. Thieves and traitors deserve no respect.

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

I think my view of "respect" is a little different than what is being said here.

I believe that every human being should be shown a basic level of courtesy and respect just because they are human. I believe that we "owe" each other the benefit of the doubt as to giving and/or receiving a basic level of respect. Now with that said every human being can raise or decrease the level of respect they are "due" by their actions, words, or deeds.

A bad man can hurt people, thus earning disrespect. He can be sent to prison, turn his life around and go into the world doing good deeds, thus earning respect for the achievements he has attained and the obstacles he has overcome. This all comes from our individual knowledge of that person. I would hope that not knowing anything about him I would show him the "respect" of a simple "good morning", holding the elevator for him, saying "thank you" to him if he held the door for me. If I caught him early in life I would probably respect him less. If I caught him later in life I and knew his story I may respect him more. Irregardless, every person of every creed should start on what I will call "a basic default of respect." After that it is up to them to earn more respect or loose what respect they have started with.

I think another problem we all have is that once we find we disagree with someone they start to "loose" credibility with us. #1) They are stupid, #2) they haven't seen what I have seen, #3) dumb liberal, #4) inbred redneck, #5) do gooder, #6) heartless monster... You get the idea.

Let us presume that you meet someone who is totally for gun control, which I believe most of us disagree with. Instead of just writing them off as a lost cause consider that you and they want the same things!

#1) Less crime;
#2) Less violent crime;
#3) Less deaths through stupid use of firearms;
#4) No children being shot;
#5) No gangs shooting it out in our streets...
And on and on.

After all, how many posts of videos have we all seen of stupid, careless and thoughtless uses of firearms and WE think they are morons!?!? And we like guns!

So instead of just writing this hopeless liberal fool off as a lost cause who "doesn't get it" let's have a dialog with him/her?

Let us consider that we actually agree with them on many of their end goals, just not the road map to how to achieve those. So start having a nice, respectful conversation. Sure you both still may get emotional, but you/we are talking! You can agree with them on many of their end goals, but ask them to consider your side as you have considered theirs. What IF we can achieve all of their goals without getting rid of guns, would they consider that? After all, the gun is the tool.

Now in this manner it may take a LOT of time and learning about the other person, their background and what has made them so resistant to firearms. This will take energy and time. A lot harder than simply "stoopid gun hating libertard" and moving on.

Of course it is also easier for them to say to themselves, "bible thumping, gun toting, unedumacated hillbilly." This door swings both ways! But even as it does just because they don't take the energy to work out our differences does not remove from us the obligation of trying.

Regards,

Doug

 

[Bigum1969]

I won't make any apologies for the fact I am LIVID over the theft of my liberties and money by both the right and the left.

The time for beating around the bush is over. I'm calling the traitors and thieves exactly what they are.

You want my money to redistribute wealth via a ponzi tax scheme? You are a thief!

You want my liberties in exchange for some BS alleged 'security'? You are a traitor!

Someone who puts a gun to you and demands money is a thief! It doesn't matter if they use a person with a badge to take it. Theft is theft.

I've had it. Thieves and traitors deserve no respect.

The problem is, we can never really tell how you feel about things...

 

[SavageEagle]

I agree with the fact that everyone is to be respected as a human being. But a bit of caution is worth taking with some.

That's the thing though. I can usually tell if I can trust someone right off the bat. It's in their body language. How they carry themselves. How they talk. How they look at me. I've become a pretty good judge of character.While respect is earned, I put faith in those that deserve it.

The problem is, we can never really tell how you feel about things...

And the other problem is I agree wholeheartedly with him...

 

[BloodEclipse]

Like I always say, the internet is an invisible form of "man up". What I mean by that is most people who are very demonstrative and vocal on the internet are not that way in person; they only say certain things in this protective environment.

I try to be the same here as I am outside of here. You can form your opinions of me as you like.I have met several members from INGO and plan on meeting many more. I don't have a bad thing to say about any of the members I've had the pleasure to meet. Being the same on-line and off makes life simple. If you have to sit behind a keyboard to grow courage, you might want to rethink why you don't have that same courage in real life.
INGO has been a huge learning experience for me. I have acquired vast amounts of knowledge from fellow members. While many topics may cause people to puff up, I have found that any request for help is quickly answered. That is one of the qualities a majority of INGO members share and it is nice to see.

 

[Que]

I try to be the same here as I am outside of here. You can form your opinions of me as you like.I have met several members from INGO and plan on meeting many more. I don't have a bad thing to say about any of the members I've had the pleasure to meet. Being the same on-line and off makes life simple. If you have to sit behind a keyboard to grow courage, you might want to rethink why you don't have that same courage in real life.
INGO has been a huge learning experience for me. I have acquired vast amounts of knowledge from fellow members. While many topics may cause people to puff up, I have found that any request for help is quickly answered. That is one of the qualities a majority of INGO members share and it is nice to see.

I believe we have both said the same thing; however, I did not single out you or any other member of the forum. I have no opinion about you because I don't know you. If I had an opinion about something you may have said on the forum, I would directly respond to you, as you have to me.

As it relates to the OP, even here we may have diverging opinions, but it was handled without the exchange of insults or discourteous innuendoes as to each others political or spiritual beliefs, nor patriotism.

Just as you used "majority" as you described members of the forum, I did the same thing, generalities. Now, because I would not have felt that your response related to me, I would have no need to respond. Only those who believe they are the opposite of what you described would need to respond, right?

 

[BloodEclipse]

Now, because I would not have felt that your response related to me, I would have no need to respond. Only those who believe they are the opposite of what you described would need to respond, right?

Right.

 

[Annie Oakley]

Some of you know me, some don't. For a long time I posted and sometimes joined in conversations that became passionate. For the most part they did stay civil.

For the last year I have not been very active here. Family situations caused me to be away from the board. When life calmed down a bit I came back and found that ,it seemed, the tone here had changed quite a bit and not for the better. Now, I lurk every few days but don't post.

I miss the friendships that developed over time here but just don't want to be involved when things seem to have the tendency to become so disrespectful and ugly. There is, of course, the possibility that something inside of me has changed and that I am reading more into some of the discussions than what is really there.

Anyway.....I hope that this site remains active and that the people who seem to be the worst offenders will read this thread and monitor themselves a bit more.

 

[shooter521]

I hope ... the people who seem to be the worst offenders will read this thread and monitor themselves a bit more.

The problem, unfortunately, is that everyone knows who "That Guy" is, except That Guy... IOW, the people who are the worst offenders will not see themselves as such, and thus will feel no need to change their behavior.

 

[riverman67]

Interesting observations!

And here I was beginning to think I was "outgrowing" INGO. But maybe I'm just a p*ssy.

Heh Burl ... I smiled when I read this

I agree that the lack of civility in general has become an issue over the last 8-10 years . I think are so called political and media leaders are somewhat to blame. Before the 2000 election I had never heard any president from any party referred to as an imbicile or an idiot by a member of the press. All of that changed with GWB . I didn't agree with everything he did and he wasn't a smooth talker but he did keep things together after 9/11. What ever happened to respecting the office? I don't like the guy that we have now at all but I'm not going to call him names just because I disagree with almost everything that he has done and the way he has done it. I guess to get back to the point , If the national media , on both sides, is calling the person that holds our highest office names everyday . Then what is the big deal about being a butt hole on an internet forum to the guy that works at the factory down the road???
I just stay out of the discussions most of the time because they slide into name calling and he said ,she said crap that doesn't do anyone any good .

 

[Que]

The fact is, we all know the "elephant in the room" is politics and sometimes religion. I would guess that the tone didn't change until the changing of the guard in Washington and even more after the new healthcare bill was passed into law.

I would hate to see people not voice their opinion for fear that someone would disagree, because I have been "schooled" here and have altered my views on some points because of the intelligent views expressed. I'm old enough to ignore the bullies whose goal is to stir the pot and those were the one's to whom I was referring.

We are like a family in a strange sort of way. We may disagree on politics, religion, and a host of other things. But, let someone come after our guns and I believe we will bind together regardless of political affiliation. Well, unless they only want to take Hight Point's.

 

[jeremy]

The problem, unfortunately, is that everyone knows who "That Guy" is, except That Guy... IOW, the people who are the worst offenders will not see themselves as such, and thus will feel no need to change their behavior.

Uhhh...

Am I that guy?!