9/11 allows us to put this into perspective

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  • ATF Consumer

    Shooter
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    Sep 23, 2008
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    South Side Indy
    First off, understand that I am not meaning to discount the lives lost from the 9/11 attacks nor to apply a direct comparison of the following. What I do want you to get from this is to see what we did to Japan during WWII in a different perspective.
    After experiencing the 9/11 attacks and how it has affected each and every one of us personally, imagine what it was like for the Japanese people during the last stretch of WWII when we, under the direction of President Truman, mass murdered hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians to force the Empire of Japan to surrender their efforts in the war.

    After doing much reading, I have come to the conclusion that other than the purpose behind the bombings, I really don't see much difference in what we did to Japan than what Hitler did during the raids on London. From most of the literature I can find, the bombings from Germany are mostly described as terror tactics, while the bombings from the US to Japan are not. :scratch: I guess the winners always write the history.

    Prior to our dropping the two Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the US had a widespread firebombing campaign in which we attacked 67 Japanese cities killing hundreds of thousands of civilians while also hitting strategic industrial areas to hinder Japans efforts to continue their own campaign. Since the firebombings did not stop the Empire in their efforts, the two nuclear bombs were then dropped on the two civilian cities...

    With your feelings against those who attacked us on 9/11, how could the Japanese civilian population ever forgive us for what we did to them? I don't think I personally could.:twocents:

    The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuclear attacks near the end of World War II against the Empire of Japan by the United States at the executive order of U.S. President Harry S. Truman on August 6 and August 9, 1945, respectively. After six months of intense fire-bombing of 67 other Japanese cities, followed by an ultimatum which was ignored by the Shōwa regime, the nuclear weapon "Little Boy" was dropped on the city of Hiroshima on Monday,[1] August 6, 1945, [2] followed on August 9 by the detonation of the "Fat Man" nuclear bomb over Nagasaki. These are to date the only attacks with nuclear weapons in the history of warfare.[3]
    The bombs killed as many as 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki by the end of 1945,[4] with roughly half of those deaths occurring on the days of the bombings. Amongst these, 15–20% died from injuries or the combined effects of flash burns, trauma, and radiation burns, compounded by illness, malnutrition and radiation sickness.[5] Since then, more have died from leukemia (231 observed) and solid cancers (334 observed) attributed to exposure to radiation released by the bombs.[6] In both cities, most of the dead were civilians.

    Conventional bombing damage to 67 Japanese cities in WWII
    City & % area destroyed
    Yokohama 58
    Tokyo 51
    Toyama 99
    Nagoya 40
    Osaka 35.1
    Nishinomiya 11.9
    Shimonoseki 37.6
    Kure 41.9
    Kobe 55.7
    Omuta 35.8
    Wakayama 50
    Kawasaki 36.2
    Okayama 68.9
    Yahata 21.2
    Kagoshima 63.4
    Amagasaki 18.9
    Sasebo 41.4
    Moji 23.3
    Miyakonojō 26.5
    Nobeoka 25.2
    Miyazaki 26.1
    Ube 20.7
    Saga 44.2
    Imabari 63.9
    Matsuyama 64
    Fukui 86
    Tokushima 85.2
    Sakai 48.2
    Hachioji 65
    Kumamoto 31.2
    Isesaki 56.7
    Takamatsu 67.5
    Akashi 50.2
    Fukuyama 80.9
    Aomori 30
    Okazaki 32.2
    Ōita 28.2
    Hiratsuka 48.4
    Tokuyama 48.3
    Yokkaichi 33.6
    Ujiyamada 41.3
    Ōgaki 39.5
    Gifu 63.6
    Shizuoka 66.1
    Himeji 49.4
    Fukuoka 24.1
    Kōchi 55.2
    Shimizu 42
    Omura 33.1
    Chiba 41
    Ichinomiya 56.3
    Nara 69.3
    Tsu 69.3
    Kuwana 75
    Toyohashi 61.9
    Numazu 42.3
    Choshi 44.2
    Kofu 78.6
    Utsunomiya 43.7
    Mito 68.9
    Sendai 21.9
    Tsuruga 65.1
    Nagaoka 64.9
    Hitachi 72
    Kumagaya 55.1
    Hamamatsu 60.3
    Maebashi 64.2
     

    fpdshooter

    Sharpshooter
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    Sep 4, 2008
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    Fishers
    Japan started the war...don't blame us because we ended it. You want to screw with us while we sleep...screw you we'll atomize your a**.

    Same thing with the Taliban and Al Queada. You hit us with a sucker punch, I and several other like minded guys overseas, will not rest or be satisfied until you have been wiped off the face of the planet.

    Never Forget, Never Forgive...Embace the Hate.
     
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 17, 2008
    3,121
    36
    NE Indiana
    I recently acquired three sets of photos taken from the original negatives of the photographer who flew over Nagasaki and Hiroshima for the U.S. Army in 1945, after the bombs were dropped. The photos hang on the wall to the side of my desk in my office so when I am pondering a particularly stumbling problem and prop my feet on my desk I am looking directly at them. Those pictures help me grasp the scope of whatever problem I am working on in a couple of different ways:

    1) I remember that every problem has a solution
    2) The solution may affect lives for generations to come
    3) Sometimes big problems deserve big solutions
    4) Human life is valuable, fragile, and can be snuffed out in a moment, don't treat it lightly

    I am very glad that I will probably never have to make a decision like Truman did in regard to Japan. I look at the photos on my wall very often to try to learn from the past.
     

    BloodEclipse

    Grandmaster
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    Apr 3, 2008
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    In the trenches for liberty!
    We did what we did to shorten the war and to save lives.
    Japan did start the war and regardless of the terms used to define attacks (Terror), those attacks were meant to break the will of the people.

    The Japanese have forgiven us I think due to the fact they were terrorists themselves. Prisoners endured horrible torture. No one walks away clean in war. When you are fighting for your survival, a document that tells you how you must fight means very little.

    I see no moral equivalency between the unprovoked attacks of 9/11 and our attacks upon Japan with whom we were at war with.
     

    DWFan

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    Jun 26, 2008
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    ATF Consumer,
    With all due respect, your feelings and statistics don't consider the hundreds of thousands of Chinese, South East Asian and Phillipino men, women and children the Japanese tortured, raped, murdered and enslaved, the countless Allied soldiers put to death by forced marches, starvation, slave labor and torture during the war, the million plus soldiers it would have taken to invade the Japanese mainland where those "innocent" civilians you mention were prepared to fight to the death (or face execution by their own military). If you want to put the war in perspective; look at the entire war.
     
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    AFA1CY

    Master
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    Mar 18, 2008
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    In that Field that is Green
    ATF Consumer,
    With all due respect, your feelings and statistics don't consider the hundreds of thousands of Chinese, South East Asian and Phillipino men, women and children the Japanese tortured, raped, murdered and enslaved, the countless Allied soldiers put to death by forced marches, starvation, slave labor and torture during the war, the million plus soldiers it would have taken to invade the Japanese mainland where those "innocent" civilians you mention were prepared to fight to the death (or face execution by their own military). If you want to put the war in perspective; look at the entire war.
    +1 :patriot:
     

    tenring

    Master
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    Oct 16, 2008
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    ATF Consumer,
    With all due respect, your feelings and statistics don't consider the hundreds of thousands of Chinese, South East Asian and Phillipino men, women and children the Japanese tortured, raped, murdered and enslaved, the countless Allied soldiers put to death by forced marches, starvation, slave labor and torture during the war, the million plus soldiers it would have taken to invade the Japanese mainland where those "innocent" civilians you mention were prepared to fight to the death (or face execution by their own military). If you want to put the war in perspective; look at the entire war.

    +2:patriot:
     

    ATF Consumer

    Shooter
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    Sep 23, 2008
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    South Side Indy
    I see some have chosen to justify the decision that Truman had taken to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children....all to break the will of the Empire.
    What you are telling me is that in order to save the lives of some it is imperative to kill all those others. Did the ends justify the means? Sorry, I just can't see that in my eyes.
    Remember that when Japan attacked us, they did it strategically to take out our Naval and Air power. Casualties included 2,335 servicemen and 68 civilians. The civilian populace was not targeted as we did to them.
    From my reading, we did attempt initially to do strategic attacks on industrial installations, but due to the in-climate weather and constant cloud cover, our bombers could not affectively hit their targets, so they decided to do mass firebombings which increased the civilian loss dramatically. And the decision to hit those two cities with our nukes and take away all of those lives is simply reprehensible. Understand that what's been stated here in this thread by a few is that our soldiers lives (who's job is to kill) were more important than the innocent lives in which they took.
    WWIIDefender, I also agree with you on that...again, my whole bringing this subject up is not necessarily to argue and defend actions on one side or the other, but for us to realize that what we did to Japan with our bombing and how it made their people fear...isn't much different than what was done to us on 9/11.
    We used a propaganda campaign in which not only did we drop leaflets over those chosen cities that we did the firebombings, warning of such action...we also dropped those same leaflets over cities that we did not bomb, simply to instill fear into the people...that is pure terror.
     

    tenring

    Master
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    Oct 16, 2008
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    Well then, justify Unit 731! If you can, and while your at it, justify the Battan Death March, and while you're researching those two, justify the 100,000 Filipinos' that were murdered in Manila as the Japs were retreating, this should be very interesting.
     

    ATF Consumer

    Shooter
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    Sep 23, 2008
    4,628
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    South Side Indy
    ...again, my whole bringing this subject up is not necessarily to argue and defend actions on one side or the other, but for us to realize that what we did to Japan with our bombing and how it made their people fear...isn't much different than what was done to us on 9/11.
    We used a propaganda campaign in which not only did we drop leaflets over those chosen cities that we did the firebombings, warning of such action...we also dropped those same leaflets over cities that we did not bomb, simply to instill fear into the people...that is pure terror.

    Well then, justify Unit 731! If you can, and while your at it, justify the Battan Death March, and while you're researching those two, justify the 100,000 Filipinos' that were murdered in Manila as the Japs were retreating, this should be very interesting.


    I'm not trying to justify anything...if you reread the OP, I clearly stated in bold what my objective in this thread is...not to argue or justify war, but for us to now have an understanding that the attacks on us on 9/11 were not much different in the PERSPECTIVE that terror was used to break the will of the people...unexpected loss of life. Can you put yourself into the eyes of those who survived these attacks and see the similarities?
     

    sporter

    Master
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    Mar 9, 2009
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    These kind of threads make me ill.

    Now we are supposed to be sorry for nuking the Japanese?

    We didn't start that war but we (and the allies) ended it.

    Why don't we hand out a Coke and Cheeseburger to everyone and hope they get along with us. Well I tell you what ATF Consumer, that doesn't work in the real world and sometimes we have to do things that don't make others happy.

    Grow up.
     
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    phrozen5100

    Marksman
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    Well then, justify Unit 731! If you can, and while your at it, justify the Battan Death March, and while you're researching those two, justify the 100,000 Filipinos' that were murdered in Manila as the Japs were retreating, this should be very interesting.

    So our own atrocities are justified and made righteous by knowledge of the offending nations' atrocities? Think of all the other governments whose humanitarian violations have been willfully ignored, where no U.S. self-interest lies.

    How would you feel if your family was to be tortured and killed based on the actions of some U.S. contractors thousands of miles away? You would imply that the masses of civilians were guilty because of the actions of a few; and so the same implication could be made for the actions of our government.

    It is the very lack of empathy witnessed in this thread which perpetuates wars. This can be seen on both sides of the fence.

    It's all too easy to forget, that behind each foreign casualty lies a name, a face, a story and dreams - not so unlike our own.
     

    CarmelHP

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    Carmel
    You could only possibly come to this conclusion forget if you completely forget the Rape of Nanking, the Manchukuo atrocities, the Three Alls Policy, the occupation of Singapore and Sook Ching massacre, the occupation of Hong Kong, the St. Stephens College massacre, the Laha massacre, the Banka Island massacre, Parit Sulong massacre, the Tol Plantation massacre, the Manila massacre, the Andaman Islands massacre, the Sandekang death marches, the New Ireland massacre, the Alaxandra Hospital massacre, the Changjiao massacre, the Changde chemical and biological attacks, the Hell Ships,the Kaimingjie chemical and biological attack, the Palawan massacre, the Wake Island massacre, the Bataan Death March, Unit 731, the ongoing atrocities in the Phillipines, ongoing executions of POWs, Okinawa, and all the other brutal attacks on civilians perpetrated by the Japanese, the cannabilism for sport, the rapes for sport, the comfort women, the slavery, the 6 million noncombatant murders in China and the 4 million other noncombatants murdered in various and sundry other countries "visited" by the peaceful Japanese Empire. To stop this slaughter, yeah, just about any action was justified. Sorry, if in the comfort of 65 years removed, you feel guilty. Tough.

    Oh, and it wasn't "a few" responsible, it was massive in scale and Japanese policy to murder and rape captive populations.
     

    BloodEclipse

    Grandmaster
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    In the trenches for liberty!
    I'm not trying to justify anything...if you reread the OP, I clearly stated in bold what my objective in this thread is...not to argue or justify war, but for us to now have an understanding that the attacks on us on 9/11 were not much different in the PERSPECTIVE that terror was used to break the will of the people...unexpected loss of life. Can you put yourself into the eyes of those who survived these attacks and see the similarities?

    I truly believe if the Japanese would have had the ability to strike against US civilians targets they would have. The attack on Pearl harbor made more strategic sense for a first strike. With the way the Japanese treated the Chinese, I can't imagine them treating Americans any different.
    When going to war you use the biggest baddest weapons you have and you use them in the most effective means possible. War isn't pretty. I would rather live and regret my actions than to not live at all.
    Just as I would do everything to protect my family, I expect my government to do everything to protect it's citizens.
     

    haldir

    Shooter
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    From Wikipedia:
    Casualty predictions varied widely but were extremely high for both sides: depending on the degree to which Japanese civilians resisted the invasion, estimates ran into the millions for Allied casualties[1] and tens of millions for Japanese casualties.

    Sounds like the atomic bombs were a bargain casualty wise. My old man was sitting in the Luzons at the time preparing to move to Japan for the invasion. Truman was one of only two Democrats he ever liked.

    On the Iraqi casualty county, most reputable figures seem to be 1/10th of the quoted figure.

     

    ATF Consumer

    Shooter
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    Sep 23, 2008
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    I don't discount any of the atrocities that happened during war, but I still don't see how the ends justify the means...
    So some here are actually saying that to get me to stop my atrocities, it is justified to kill my family in order to do so?
    Maybe our law enforcement ought to invoke this here in the states...should cut down on crime considerably.
     

    CarmelHP

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    Carmel
    I don't discount any of the atrocities that happened during war, but I still don't see how the ends justify the means...
    So some here are actually saying that to get me to stop my atrocities, it is justified to kill my family in order to do so?
    Maybe our law enforcement ought to invoke this here in the states...should cut down on crime considerably.

    Perhaps you misunderstand the nature of warfare. It's a people against a people. Ugly, unfortunate, but true nonetheless. It's not individualized. In the case of Japan, the people were well aware of what was happening and fanatically supported it deeply and culturally. Many have the conceit that all cultures are synonymous and "they're just like us." Unfortunately, that's a dangerous misconception. Other cultures have motivations that are different than yours, they're not all the same, and they may want to kill and rape you for reasons that have to do with them and not you.
     

    haldir

    Shooter
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    Jun 10, 2008
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    I don't discount any of the atrocities that happened during war, but I still don't see how the ends justify the means...
    So some here are actually saying that to get me to stop my atrocities, it is justified to kill my family in order to do so?
    Maybe our law enforcement ought to invoke this here in the states...should cut down on crime considerably.

    If your family is hiding you in the house, feeding you, protecting you, providing you with weapons and ammunition, supporting you in every way as you carry out your serial killings, raping and robbing, I think when the police show up and you don't give up, your family will be taking their chances.
     

    Jay

    Gotta watch us old guys.....cause if you don't....
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    Jan 19, 2008
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    War has never been nice. War will not ever be nice. The Marquis of Queensbury is dead..... if "your atrocities" adversely affect my family, your family is in serious jeopardy.
     
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