Church Security question

flint stonez · Feb 20, 2024

I’m part of the security team at my church. Sad but being able to stop the bad guys before they hurt the sheep is where society is. I’m curious if anyone else serves in this capacity and what is your weapon of choice?
Personally I am now carrying an Sig 365 along with a second magazine. I know there are other items to carry but I’m specifically asking about the firearm you carry.

If I have posted this in the wrong thread please forgive me. I’m new here and still learning to navigate the forum.

Thanks

NHT3 · Feb 20, 2024

I'm also security at my church but I don't see why you are interested in what anyone else carries? I always carry the same pistol I train with regularly as carry every day. I imagine anyone else on a security team does the same. Puzzling question but if I'm missing something please enlighten me.

w_ADAM_d88 · Feb 20, 2024

I too am on the safety team at my church. I carry and have trained well with them. Done many training courses, active shooter courses, and misc. safety courses. I carry quite a few different weapons based on season, events, etc. and have trained with all of them. Most common that I carry is a Glock 22 or 27.

If you ever have the chance to take Tactics and Firearms Handling by Triad Protective Solutions (Serving Protectors), I highly recommend it. They specialize in church based scenarios, and have an excellent program!

Cameramonkey · Feb 20, 2024

Also a safety team member here. Carry what you EDC and what you are proficient with.

Now the 365 is a smaller gun and some folks struggle beyond 10 yards with it. So if you shoot better with a larger gun you might consider carrying that as you are more likely to have to use it at distance vs personal protection where you can choose to evade and avoid the threat.

Remember you might have to use it at distance with innocents in the sight picture. So you want what you are the most proficient with at ALL distances.

Just for giggles, look up the ILEA qualification test. See if you can pass it with that 365. The tell is going to be the last stage where you are out at 25 yards.

This is a good link aimed at absolute novices who want to know how police are trained, but it is very thorough.

Police Qualification Standards

Police Qualification Standards (and why they matter to you) It is common knowledge that Police Officers must undergo a substantial amount of training to become certified and that a portion of that …

applied-ballistics.com

Winamac · Feb 20, 2024

I to am a member of my churches security team, and yes I carry at church. Our team leader is a Sheriff's deputy, he and his family attend our church as well.

Hkindiana · Feb 20, 2024

Carry whatever the Indy mall hero was carrying - that served him well

99zhuggerz99 · Feb 20, 2024

Would also be in the best interest to have some trauma training and a small kit at the ready.

jsx1043 · Feb 20, 2024

99zhuggerz99 said:
Would also be in the best interest to have some trauma training and a small kit at the ready.

Was just getting ready to add this.

Medical:
First aid, CPR/AED, triage and Stop the Bleed are a baseline. Acting within the security role, you’re more likely to help someone with a sprained ankle, a slip-and-fall, a heart attack or other illness or injury versus treating wounded from an active shooter. But that doesn’t mean you skip out on leg day. Train it all, practice it all.

(Coincidentally, there will be an upcoming course for this in the very near future, wink wink.)

Identification:
As part of my duties in LE I served on the Dignitary Protection Unit, providing plainclothes protection and security in numerous locales and settings. While operating in plainclothes, it’s very important to have some sort of common identifier amongst all the team members and possibly a quick deploy identification garment like a hi viz sash, sleeves or vest under your suit jacket. Should you engage a threat and the 911 calls go out, YOU don’t want to be the one standing there holding a gun when the cops show up without looking like a good guy.

Armor:
If armor is a concern, a slick plate carrier (Ferro Slickster, T-Rex AC1 et al.) with IIIA armor or a low profile armor shirt fits wonderfully under a dress shirt.

Communications:
Establish a comms protocol with every member of the team to include common terminology and locations, checkpoints, security sweeps, etc., and using secure two-way radios with pieces. Communication is key for observing and relaying threat information to other team members, or real-time information during an emergency. Integrate surveillance monitoring if applicable.

Tactics:
Using all of the above, create and practice the movements necessary for engaging a threat, securing the threat, providing first aid/trauma care, evacuation, etc.

flint stonez · Feb 20, 2024

Really great information. Thanks for everyone’s thoughts and opinions.
I agree there is MUCH more to church security than carrying whatever firearm one prefers. The team I’m part of is rather informal and really just at the beginning stages. We’ve got a long way to go and I was looking for opinions from others that take security seriously.
Thanks

Cameramonkey · Feb 20, 2024

flint stonez said:
Really great information. Thanks for everyone’s thoughts and opinions.
I agree there is MUCH more to church security than carrying whatever firearm one prefers. The team I’m part of is rather informal and really just at the beginning stages. We’ve got a long way to go and I was looking for opinions from others that take security seriously.
Thanks

Definitely reach out as you move forward. LOTS of good info here by established folks.
Also, it may sound trivial, but as you ramp up, I humbly suggest you refer to yourselves as the "Safety Team" not the "Security Team." For two reasons:

First, you are more likely to deal with boring things like medical issues, weather events, etc. Those are FAR more common than security threats.

Second, some insurance companies freak out if you put armed security front and center. You should be a safety team that just happens to be armed in the event the extremely rare event happens.

(or God help us, the Preventing Private Paramilitary Activity Act of 2024 happens to pass)

flint stonez · Feb 20, 2024

Excellent thought using “Safety Team” vs “Security”. I will be attempting to implement that right away. Right now we’re the “Safety and Security team”. Dropping the “Security” seems like a good idea.

Cynical · Feb 20, 2024

I'm a member of the safety/security team at my church. Although, not ideal,the six of us all carry different weapons. I carry a S&W shield plus with optics, my brother a Springer hellcat ,another Sig 365etc. I don't care what you carry as long as you have judicious aim. In layman's terms, carry what YOU shoot best. I would recommend training for your team and document it. As an aside I have training this sat. from 9-12 FYI training means fun to me.

SnoopLoggyDog · Feb 20, 2024

Nephew is on his church Safety Team. He just upgraded to a SA Hellcat Pro with a red dot sight. He wanted to improve his speed and accuracy, in case he had to shoot across the sanctuary.

Hellcat® Pro Handgun - Springfield Armory

www.springfield-armory.com

ECS686 · Feb 20, 2024

Cameramonkey said:
Also a safety team member here. Carry what you EDC and what you are proficient with.

Now the 365 is a smaller gun and some folks struggle beyond 10 yards with it. So if you shoot better with a larger gun you might consider carrying that as you are more likely to have to use it at distance vs personal protection where you can choose to evade and avoid the threat.

Remember you might have to use it at distance with innocents in the sight picture. So you want what you are the most proficient with at ALL distances.

Just for giggles, look up the ILEA qualification test. See if you can pass it with that 365. The tell is going to be the last stage where you are out at 25 yards.

This is a good link aimed at absolute novices who want to know how police are trained, but it is very thorough.

Police Qualification Standards

Police Qualification Standards (and why they matter to you) It is common knowledge that Police Officers must undergo a substantial amount of training to become certified and that a portion of that …

applied-ballistics.com

While a good look see the problem with Any LE Qual corse is the scoring rings are WAY to large. With ILEA you get full value points for anything 8 ring and in and an 8 ring in a B27 is on the outside of any average size human and not an immediate incapacitating hit.

Whatever gun you shoot try any of the assessment drills on a NRA B8 repair center as that better reflects the size of the heart and aortic area.

So here is the Ramgemaster baseline assessment drill and Justin Dyal double add one drill. They tell a lot more about one’s abilities with less rounds.

Good luck

WebSnyper · Feb 20, 2024

I have no first hand experience with this group, I just know that before he recently passed away one of the primary folks at Proteq range was part of this org: https://www.facebook.com/ForwardOperatingChurch/

They offer training for church safety teams.

Cameramonkey · Feb 20, 2024

ECS686 said:
While a good look see the problem with Any LE Qual corse is the scoring rings are WAY to large. With ILEA you get full value points for anything 8 ring and in and an 8 ring in a B27 is on the outside of any average size human and not an immediate incapacitating hit.

Whatever gun you shoot try any of the assessment drills on a NRA B8 repair center as that better reflects the size of the heart and aortic area.

So here is the Ramgemaster baseline assessment drill and Justin Dyal double add one drill. They tell a lot more about one’s abilities with less rounds.

Good luck

I dont disagree.

Just suggesting it as a good starting point. Obviously shooting better is preferred. But at least having your team shooting to the same standards as LEO is a good start. The major point being if they cant even qualify to the pitiful ILEA standards, they have no business carrying on your safety team. Its not so much a marksmanship designation as much as it is a liability disqualifier.

And if you want to improve, change the passing score so that all hits have to be inside the inner rectangle. Here's why:

I have lots of the FPF-3 targets I found at action target so I built templates to create the G17 hit boxes to adapt these. (long story) When superimposed, the inner rectangle of the g17 covers all the internal goodies of the torso triangle. So if you can keep all of the scored hits inside the small rectangle Its an improvement.

The bottom of the internal g17 rectangle stops about the midpoint of the barrel. Its not perfect, but better than the outer box of the g17 which is about 1/2" outside the toso box on the target below.

worddoer · Feb 20, 2024

WebSnyper said:
I have no first hand experience with this group, I just know that before he recently passed away one of the primary folks at Proteq range was part of this org: https://www.facebook.com/ForwardOperatingChurch/

They offer training for church safety teams.

Thanks for the link! I am head of the security team for both my church's campuses. We have our training schedule already established for this year, but I reaching out to see if they can help us with our Force on Force refresher we wanted to do in September. The person we used to work with is out of the business now.

To the OP.....

When I was younger, I used to think that those guys who kept talking about training and not the new fangled boom stick were just Fudd's.

However, as I get older, I have come to realize that training and tactics will always beat the untrained latest new fangled hotness equipment wise.

If it was up against a person with their untrained new fangled hotness, VS a highly trained operator with crap equipment......I would put my money on the highly trained operator every time.

It may sound cliché, but I now really believe the old saying "It's the Indian, not the arrow".

And I will reinforce what others have said, don't get tunnel vision on firearms training. If a Church Security Team is doing it's job correctly, the team should hopefully apprehend/intervene before firearms are ever needed hoping that they can resolve all situations peacefully. With that said, if firearms are needed, the team must be ready to go there at the flip of a switch physically and mentally.

Any good group will also train on de-escalation techniques, hand to hand take down techniques, situational awareness and key profiling indicators, Medical training that not only focuses on major trauma but also the typical things a church team may run into (broken bones, heart conditions, blood sugar problems, ect).

Be encouraged, there is a path forward. In the times we are living in, it would be wise to formalize your team with the approval of church leadership sooner rather than later. There are many indicators in the world right now that things may only be getting dicer rather than better. Especially for churches.

Gunaddict · Feb 20, 2024

While I’m not on the official safety team, I carry all the time which the elders know. I am a bigger guy and my Ghost belly band or my compression shirt with carry slots has changed my carry situation for the better. If I pocket carry, I have a Ruger EC9. My others I carry with the belly band are my Sig 365XL, Glock 43X, Kimber .357 wheel gun, Taurus G3C just depending on what mood I’m in. I have carried my full size pistols occasionally if I wear a sweatshirt over my shirt and it is comfortable with either belly band or compression shirt.

Cameramonkey · Feb 20, 2024

I posted this thought on a related FB group today and I think it deserves a repost for all those on safety teams.

Please be realistic in your training. It could mean the difference between doing their jobs and freezing due to shock of how ugly the enemy can be.

During an exercise in the sanctuary, I took over for our leader and simulated the disgruntled congregant/guest having an outburst to have them practice what should be done. They were expected to leave their seats and move toward me to stage for de-escalation and be ready to escort me out and be prepared for me to advance on the pastor and stop me if necessary.

So everyone got into their assigned seats throughout the sanctuary and I placed myself halfway up in the center of the pews away from them all. I said a little prayer of forgiveness in my head for what I was about to do, and then stood up and YELLED as loud as I could "THIS IS BULL****! THIS IS F***ING RIDICULOUS. YOU HAVE NO F***ING IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT..." and continued my profanity laced tirade. Then I realized nobody was on either side of me at the ends of the pew.

I stopped and looked around and everyone was looking at me, shocked. They were totally taken aback I would say such things in church and literally forgot what they were supposed to do because I TOTALLY disrupted their OODA loop. NOBODY advanced on me because they didnt expect me to scream profanities in the house of the Lord.

I suspect had I been a "polite" protester I think they would have done what they should have because they were in their comfort zone, and had a false sense of security for when the REAL bad guy showed up. But I dont think they would have sprung into action like they should have if it had really happened with a real hostile like I simulated.

ditcherman · Feb 20, 2024

Cameramonkey said:
I posted this thought on a related FB group today and I think it deserves a repost for all those on safety teams.

Please be realistic in your training. It could mean the difference between doing their jobs and freezing due to shock of how ugly the enemy can be.

During an exercise in the sanctuary, I took over for our leader and simulated the disgruntled congregant/guest having an outburst to have them practice what should be done. They were expected to leave their seats and move toward me to stage for de-escalation and be ready to escort me out and be prepared for me to advance on the pastor and stop me if necessary.

So everyone got into their assigned seats throughout the sanctuary and I placed myself halfway up in the center of the pews away from them all. I said a little prayer of forgiveness in my head for what I was about to do, and then stood up and YELLED as loud as I could "THIS IS BULL****! THIS IS F***ING RIDICULOUS. YOU HAVE NO F***ING IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT..." and continued my profanity laced tirade. Then I realized nobody was on either side of me at the ends of the pew.

I stopped and looked around and everyone was looking at me, shocked. They were totally taken aback I would say such things in church and literally forgot what they were supposed to do because I TOTALLY disrupted their OODA loop. NOBODY advanced on me because they didnt expect me to scream profanities in the house of the Lord.

I suspect had I been a "polite" protester I think they would have done what they should have because they were in their comfort zone, and had a false sense of security for when the REAL bad guy showed up. But I dont think they would have sprung into action like they should have if it had really happened with a real hostile like I simulated.

That’s awesome, very telling.
It won’t go down the way we imagine it will.

Church Security question

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