The Insane "Social Justice" Thread pt IV

[kickbacked]

Well, sure. But offense is generally taken more than given. Sometimes offense is genuine. But you're kinda making this akin to something like stolen valor. If I am in that situation, and I see some guy at a baseball game with zero idea of it's meaning, wearing a prop like 1000 other fans, why should I be upset? The person wearing it isn't trying to be a fraud. They're not stealing my valor. They're using it in a form of pop culture. They're wearing a prop, for **** sake. People need to calm down about this. This just smells a lot like you being offended on other people's behalf. I dunno. Maybe look at the other side of it too.

Were you this offended when Elizabeth Warren tried to claim membership in a tribe? Because I think if I were a native american I could be legitimately, justifiably offended by that. Or, I dunno. Maybe it would only have offended you if she went to a baseball game and put on a cheaply made in China head dress prop bought at the ball park swag shop for $50.

I am personally not offended, I am discussing a topic that was posted and my opinion on it. Maybe read a book about Native Americans, or talk to them about what it means to them because whether you like it or not it offends them.

Can I walk into a church on Easter Sunday with a crown of thorns and stigmata painted on my body to symbolize Jesus? Or would that make members upset and probably include me getting my butt whipped by a mob of rightfully upset people? Theres nothing illegal about doing it.

 

[MCgrease08]

Can I walk into a church on Easter Sunday with a crown of thorns and stigmata painted on my body to symbolize Jesus? Or would that make members upset and probably include me getting my butt whipped by a mob of rightfully upset people? Theres nothing illegal about doing it

It seems to work for this guy.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/19/asia/philippines-crucifixion-practice-33rd-year-trnd/index.html

 

[KLB]

I am personally not offended, I am discussing a topic that was posted and my opinion on it. Maybe read a book about Native Americans, or talk to them about what it means to them because whether you like it or not it offends them.

Can I walk into a church on Easter Sunday with a crown of thorns and stigmata painted on my body to symbolize Jesus? Or would that make members upset and probably include me getting my butt whipped by a mob of rightfully upset people? Theres nothing illegal about doing it.

Your analogy is a bit off comparing entry into a church with a sports venue. I don't know anyone visiting tribal lands with war paint on their faces.

 

[2A_Tom]

If you were there to disturb/take over the service, you would be removed from my Church, as anyone that comes to disrupt them.

If you come in and sit down and cause no problem you could enjoy the service aside from getting various odd looks. Most of our congregation would try to make you comfortable and try to make sure you knew you have eternal life.

That is our mission.

 

[BugI02]

My only point is freedom. You are free to put on a uniform with s CMH and the Supremes say it is freedom of speech and not stolen valor.

The liberals have no problem with the freedom of a man to dress as a woman, and I do not see your differentiation between cross dressing and identifying as a female.

The dispute I have with you is you pontificate that it is wrong for a man to paint his face.

Do I like it, would I do it? No, but if someone has the inclination to do it who am I or you to disparage it.

This. Point taken about head dresses/war bonnets. Each of the feathers in the real thing was earned by deeds and to wear a fake one I can see as a form of stolen valor.

The face painting, not so much. For one thing, they are not mimicking real war paint, judging by the few photographs and paintings of the actual thing. They are painting their face in team colors, almost all of which were never used for war paint or even available to Native Americans. Also lacks the stolen valor aspect because it signified nothing about the one wearing it other than readiness to do battle, it did not indicate a claim to status or prowess. The pushback I think is coming from the perceived PC nature of Kbacked's objection, especially in light of most of the complaints coming from SJWs speaking for Native Americans without consulting them and taking offense to greater extent than the real McCoy would

I, for one, do not expect to read PC bull**** on INGO and will be hostile to it when I see it

 

[BugI02]

I think I've answered this above, but, just to further the point, let me point out that the view from outside is not always representative of the view from inside. Do you test things? If they're not falsifiable, what then? All tests of god are non-falsifiable.

The nice thing about metaphysics is that you can acknowledge the truth in that and still believe what you believe.

Do you 'believe' in dark energy and/or dark matter? If you do, do you have 'faith' that science will come up with a way to make the theory testable, because it isn't testable right now

I fail to see much difference, other than faith has been testable for me but you obviously won't believe until you can attach some kind of meter to him

 

[jamil]

Like you said there are 1000 other people wearing it as a prop; including it into pop culture... and as all pop culture is, it's a temporary acknowledgement of something. Should we be ignorant of the culture we are mocking? Does it make a difference that the humorous acknowledgement is meant to highlight the strengths of that particular culture?

Who says those people are mocking it? I doubt they give it any thought at all other than it's the theme of their team. I'm not sure where humorous acknowledgement comes in, but those sports fanatics wearing the head dresses aren't trying to highlight anything more than their team spirit. I think people are making more of it than there is.

 

[jamil]

Do you 'believe' in dark energy and/or dark matter? If you do, do you have 'faith' that science will come up with a way to make the theory testable, because it isn't testable right now

I fail to see much difference, other than faith has been testable for me but you obviously won't believe until you can attach some kind of meter to him

Well, I'm not in that world. I really don't know a lot about dark energy or dark matter. But, if it's not testable, then no. I wouldn't believe it. If it's a really good explanation for how a part of the universe works, then it's a good working theory. And you've really made part of my point, where I said that untestable science looks a lot like untestable faith. I'm not trying to give you a reason why not to trust your faith. I am trying to give you a good reason why it's not damaging to your faith to acknowledge some things about it. It is indeed faith. It is indeed untestable. There is a chance you could be wrong about at least a little of it. And that last part implies a lot about how you might apply that to the faith of others, and how they might believe differently even given the same information you have.

 

[Leadeye]

To me, dark matter is something theorized as an explanation of obersvations, but you could just as easily say that space-time stretches, bends, and compresses. Either way the numbers would work out.

 

[kickbacked]

It seems to work for this guy.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/19/asia/philippines-crucifixion-practice-33rd-year-trnd/index.html

did you read the article? It says the church condemns it.

 

[jamil]

I am personally not offended, I am discussing a topic that was posted and my opinion on it. Maybe read a book about Native Americans, or talk to them about what it means to them because whether you like it or not it offends them.

Can I walk into a church on Easter Sunday with a crown of thorns and stigmata painted on my body to symbolize Jesus? Or would that make members upset and probably include me getting my butt whipped by a mob of rightfully upset people? Theres nothing illegal about doing it.

Maybe read a book? Isn't that a cop-out for a real argument? I understand that many might take some offense to seeing a bunch of drunken assholes wearing paint on their faces and cheep Chinese knockoff head-dresses on their heads at a football game. Don't watch.

Okay so about your analogy, I think that's not a good one. I was a Christian for many decades and I struggle to think of any context in which a person would just do that for a purpose other than being insane, or trying to mock the other churchgoers, or perhaps part of a planned program to make some point. I dunno, maybe that's just a failure of my own imagination, but it's not very realistic outside of intentionally mocking.

Unless perhaps you think that the people wearing the headdresses are actually trying to mock natives. It crossed Kut's mind apparently, so maybe you think that too. But if you think that, isn't that your issue and not theirs? They don't appear to be thinking that they're mocking anyone. They're just there to cheer on their team.

Let me help you with a scenario. An artist pisses in a bucket and throws a crucifix in it, and calls it **** Christ. Is that offensive? Oh yeah. It is. So should that behavior be socially shunned? (no one called it canceling back then)

So what was Christians reaction? They were obviously offended because it was obviously intended to offend. Some people wanted to ban things like that. But what was the biggest response to it? Calls to de-fund National Endowment for the Arts. So basically they said, yeah. That's offensive. We don't like that you did it. But it's your right. Just stop making us pay for it. I think they had a point.

 

[jamil]

Your analogy is a bit off comparing entry into a church with a sports venue. I don't know anyone visiting tribal lands with war paint on their faces. WITH THE INTENT TO OFFEND

Not that it needed fixed, but I added something I thought was missing.

But you're exactly right. If someone goes into someone else's house and especially with the intent to offend, I think that's a ****** thing to do. That's not the case with sports fanatics.

I think a good example is stolen valor. Because the offense taken by Native Americans seem to be very similar to the offense taken by soldiers when they see someone wearing a uniform who didn't earn it. But even in that case, it's not the same. The people who go around pretending to be veterans are trying to get the same respect that real soldiers have sacrificed for and earned. Wearing a prop for game-time isn't at all the same thing unless you try to think of it as the same thing.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's not a bad thing to push back on groups that take offense at so much and suggest maybe some are being too sensitive. I think the people being too sensitive will be really pissed at me for saying that. I think that good people don't go out of their way to be offensive. Putting on a military uniform to gain the accolades of others falls into that category I think. Claiming you're a Native American to gain an extra intersectional points on the Woke chart-o-oppression fits into that as well. Being an idiot and dressing up as your teams mascot? I kinda think that's a silly offense to be taken. It's just people being nuts.

 

[BugI02]

It is indeed faith. It is indeed untestable. There is a chance you could be wrong about at least a little of it. And that last part implies a lot about how you might apply that to the faith of others, and how they might believe differently even given the same information you have.

Indistinguishable from a description of science at the leading edge. Why is it so hard to acknowledge that science is just a different, perhaps more rigorous, form of faith

I have no need to attempt to prove faith is superior to science, in fact I judge most worldly events preferentially by scientific thought. I just wonder why the proponents of science feel so compelled to prove it is superior to faith

I wouldn't design a aircraft with faith, I wouldn't design how I live my life with science

 

[kickbacked]

Maybe read a book? Isn't that a cop-out for a real argument? I understand that many might take some offense to seeing a bunch of drunken assholes wearing paint on their faces and cheep Chinese knockoff head-dresses on their heads at a football game. Don't watch.

Okay so about your analogy, I think that's not a good one. I was a Christian for many decades and I struggle to think of any context in which a person would just do that for a purpose other than being insane, or trying to mock the other churchgoers, or perhaps part of a planned program to make some point. I dunno, maybe that's just a failure of my own imagination, but it's not very realistic outside of intentionally mocking.

Unless perhaps you think that the people wearing the headdresses are actually trying to mock natives. It crossed Kut's mind apparently, so maybe you think that too. But if you think that, isn't that your issue and not theirs? They don't appear to be thinking that they're mocking anyone. They're just there to cheer on their team.

Let me help you with a scenario. An artist pisses in a bucket and throws a crucifix in it, and calls it **** Christ. Is that offensive? Oh yeah. It is. So should that behavior be socially shunned? (no one called it canceling back then)

So what was Christians reaction? They were obviously offended because it was obviously intended to offend. Some people wanted to ban things like that. But what was the biggest response to it? Calls to de-fund National Endowment for the Arts. So basically they said, yeah. That's offensive. We don't like that you did it. But it's your right. Just stop making us pay for it. I think they had a point.

I thought about using the recent Lil nas x "satan" shoes that got people upset and ended with Nike suing the maker, however I didnt imagine many people would know about that.

Educating yourself isn't a cop out. Im clearly not doing a good job representing a war bonnet/ head dress to you. So maybe researching what it means or talking to tribal members would be more helpful.

 

[BugI02]

Have you talked to tribal members or just read what was on page one of a google search? How I phrased it is a bit confrontational but I'm serious

I have seen actual Native Americans come down on both sides of the Cleveland and Washington issues. I have not spoken about the concept to any Native Americans because I don't know very many, the ones I do know live out west and I haven't seen them in more than a year, and when I do visit them I would not discuss this or any other politics unless they wished to bring it up because face time with friends is too valuable to waste on maya

 

[KLB]

I thought about using the recent Lil nas x "satan" shoes that got people upset and ended with Nike suing the maker, however I didnt imagine many people would know about that.

Educating yourself isn't a cop out. Im clearly not doing a good job representing a war bonnet/ head dress to you. So maybe researching what it means or talking to tribal members would be more helpful.

They are so offended by it that some make and sell them. Here is one example.

Native American Headdresses | Warbonnets - Kachina House

Warbonnets are more commonly known as Native American headdresses. Shop traditional Native American warbonnets online at Kachina House!

www.kachinahouse.com

At Kachina House we carry a vast selection of Native American warbonnets and headdresses, handmade by artists from various tribes. Crafted and accented with natural materials, we offer unique objects of art and craft.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

To me, dark matter is something theorized as an explanation of obersvations, but you could just as easily say that space-time stretches, bends, and compresses. Either way the numbers would work out.

That would still leave the question of why its stretched in one place, bent in another, and compressed somewhere else. We know that matter/mass can cause these distortions (as well as other observations such as galactic rotational curves) so dark matter was posited to explain the observations indicating a large amount of mass that we are unable to directly detect

Its really an example of Ockham's Razor at work. Its simpler to posit mass that we can't observe than it is to posit some other phenomena that distorts space time (that we also can't observe) The same can be applied to other competing theories to explain the observations, such as Modified Newtonian Dynamics

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Have you talked to tribal members or just read what was on page one of a google search? How I phrased it is a bit confrontational but I'm serious

I have seen actual Native Americans come down on both sides of the Cleveland and Washington issues. I have not spoken about the concept to any Native Americans because I don't know very many, the ones I do know live out west and I haven't seen them in more than a year, and when I do visit them I would not discuss this or any other politics unless they wished to bring it up because face time with friends is too valuable to waste on maya

A few years ago there was a survey that found that 90% of Native Americans didn't find the Washington Redskins to be offensive. (https://www.nbcsports.com/washingto...t-native-americans-not-offended-redskins-name)

Based on that I can't imagine them finding the Cleveland Indians, Atlanta Braves, Kanas City Chiefs more offensive. My observation at the time was that it was largely white people feeling the need to be offended on behalf of the Native Americans

While I'm sure the numbers have changed and more are now offended, I think its due more to marketing and campaigning than people actually being offended. Personally I find that to be the offensive thing, people are basically telling Native Americans "you're too dumb to know when you're being insulted, so we are going being insulted for you until you wise up"

 

[DoggyDaddy]

A few years ago there was a survey that found that 90% of Native Americans didn't find the Washington Redskins to be offensive. (https://www.nbcsports.com/washingto...t-native-americans-not-offended-redskins-name)

Based on that I can't imagine them finding the Cleveland Indians, Atlanta Braves, Kanas City Chiefs more offensive. My observation at the time was that it was largely white people feeling the need to be offended on behalf of the Native Americans

While I'm sure the numbers have changed and more are now offended, I think its due more to marketing and campaigning than people actually being offended. Personally I find that to be the offensive thing, people are basically telling Native Americans "you're too dumb to know when you're being insulted, so we are going being insulted for you until you wise up"

That's the latest thing with progressives. They appear to be filled with guilt-ridden self-loathing so they lash out at perceived offenses by people without any such intent. As a result, people that have never been racist (or homophobic or "whatever"-phobic or "-ist" get labeled and have rightfully been getting angry about it, which results in some, (not all) beginning to actually appear to be those things, when nothing could be further from the truth. It serves to keep up the division in this country and stoke the fires of racism, etc.. They have no interest in bringing healing, only division.

 

[jamil]

I thought about using the recent Lil nas x "satan" shoes that got people upset and ended with Nike suing the maker, however I didnt imagine many people would know about that.

Educating yourself isn't a cop out. Im clearly not doing a good job representing a war bonnet/ head dress to you. So maybe researching what it means or talking to tribal members would be more helpful.

No, arguing that I must not understand both sides of the issue is the copout. Do you think that a person who understands it can’t possibly come to a different conclusion than you do? Is that why you think I must not understand?