Defending against dogs with lethal force?

[T.Lex]

That is just wrong. That one should have joined the Shepard in doggie heaven.

Bad Joo-Joo.

That's kinda where I'm at on it.

I'm not really against APBT as a breed. Yeah, they probably are inclined to be more aggressive (and maybe even provably so). But also, nurture can go a long way to mitigating that particular part of their nature in any particular dog. "But mine just loves people" is totally believable to me for any specific family dog. Doesn't mean I won't be leery of it, but I can accept that people believe that about their particular APBT.

For purposes of that anecdote, though, I don't care what breed it was. If it goes after a GS (even an elderly one) unprovoked and does real damage, that's a problem dog. Like, unfixable. At the very least, untrustworthy around any one. And if you can't trust your dog, I can really only think of a couple reasons to keep it around. And neither is particularly kind to the animal.

 

[edporch]

When it comes to dogs, it's a mixture of nature AND nurture.
YES, how you raise them has a lot to do with it, but that's not all there is.

Most dog breeds were bred to perform certain tasks, and along with that task certain temperaments and instincts are also required.

For example, read the "Characteristics" of the various dog breeds at the UKC site.
Their typical inborn temperaments vary greatly between the breeds.
https://www.ukcdogs.com/breed-standards

 

[CindyE]

And again.....do not take this wrong please.....they are basically and foremost just a dog. Even the family Fido has that instinct in them. Having seen dogs that pack up in the woods during the day and go back home at night.......the have been and always will be just dogs. They are not people no matter how much we try and hang that on them.

Be a good dog owner. A good one. Its akin to being a good parent. It takes time and effort.

No offense taken. Obviously, I love my dogs. They are our furkids. But they are still dogs, and they are going to do what dogs do. We might not understand it, and they probably don't understand why we wear clothes and go to work...lol. You really can't trust any breed of dog to not fight another dog. Someone in a dog group i belong to recently came home to find that one of his dogs was killed by one of the others. None of them were pit bulls.

 

[IndyBeerman]

Just out of curiosity, they re-homed a pitbull that, unprovoked, attacked and killed a German Shepherd?

Do I have that right?

That is just wrong. That one should have joined the Shepard in doggie heaven.

Bad Joo-Joo.

Yes that is wrong, once a dog kills anything unprovoked, the chances of it happening again are too high, I would not hesitate one second of putting one down if this happened.

All dogs have the propensity for violence, they are pack animals. If you look at the numbers, small breeds bite far more often as larger breeds. The smaller breeds just don't due the damage that larger breeds can.

No, no they are not.

It is how they are raised.
In my 59 years on this earth, I have had the sad fate of seeing 14 of the 15 dogs pass away that I have grown up with and around, and they have never bit a person.

Mostly a mix of medium to small dogs. Never even shown teeth with a snarl, and that includes a Chow-Chow which a lot of people consider them as aggressive dogs.

It all boils down to how they are raised. If you allow aggression as in with VERY rough play, or allow them to be possessive of toys, (like the chew/pull ropes) then you are allowing aggressive behavior.

Now as to small breeds bite more than larger breeds. Here is where that problem arises.

Children not being taught not pull on a dogs ears/tail. Even the most tamest of small dogs can lash out if they are being abused this way. Kids parents say "Oh, my child was just playing with them" Well it's all fine and dandy until that child hurts the pup with a very hard tug on the tail or ear, then like all red blooded mammals, it becomes a fight or flight issue. It's not the dogs fault, they see it as protecting themselves.

Had a co-worker whose dog bit his 4 year old kids hand, they rush their son to get a few stitches. He's adamant that he's going to put the dog down when he gets home.

That was until he got home and seen that the entire right side of his dogs head was covered in blood from his ear down his neck.
What had happened was his kid had pulled so hard on the dogs ear that he tore the ear about 20% off. He knew it was not his dogs fault. Till the day that dog passed away, even though he was tormented by him, he would lay at his son's feet or side watching over him with a protective eye.

Any dog can be aggressive when provoked enough. But the sad fact is that there is a lot of human trash out there that want their dog to be mean and aggressive and allow it.

 

[CindyE]

That's kinda where I'm at on it.

I'm not really against APBT as a breed. Yeah, they probably are inclined to be more aggressive (and maybe even provably so). But also, nurture can go a long way to mitigating that particular part of their nature in any particular dog. "But mine just loves people" is totally believable to me for any specific family dog. Doesn't mean I won't be leery of it, but I can accept that people believe that about their particular APBT.

For purposes of that anecdote, though, I don't care what breed it was. If it goes after a GS (even an elderly one) unprovoked and does real damage, that's a problem dog. Like, unfixable. At the very least, untrustworthy around any one. And if you can't trust your dog, I can really only think of a couple reasons to keep it around. And neither is particularly kind to the animal.

I wouldn't necessarily put the dog down. I'd probably keep it away from other dogs, or muzzled. Only re-home to a very good, experienced owner, preferably as an only dog. Dog aggression does not mean human aggression. Sometimes certain dogs just don't like each other. They act like a couple of enraged drunks in a bar brawl.

 

[churchmouse]

Yes that is wrong, once a dog kills anything unprovoked, the chances of it happening again are too high, I would not hesitate one second of putting one down if this happened.




No, no they are not.

It is how they are raised.
In my 59 years on this earth, I have had the sad fate of seeing 14 of the 15 dogs pass away that I have grown up with and around, and they have never bit a person.

Mostly a mix of medium to small dogs. Never even shown teeth with a snarl, and that includes a Chow-Chow which a lot of people consider them as aggressive dogs.

It all boils down to how they are raised. If you allow aggression as in with VERY rough play, or allow them to be possessive of toys, (like the chew/pull ropes) then you are allowing aggressive behavior.

Now as to small breeds bite more than larger breeds. Here is where that problem arises.

Children not being taught not pull on a dogs ears/tail. Even the most tamest of small dogs can lash out if they are being abused this way. Kids parents say "Oh, my child was just playing with them" Well it's all fine and dandy until that child hurts the pup with a very hard tug on the tail or ear, then like all red blooded mammals, it becomes a fight or flight issue. It's not the dogs fault, they see it as protecting themselves.

Had a co-worker whose dog bit his 4 year old kids hand, they rush their son to get a few stitches. He's adamant that he's going to put the dog down when he gets home.

That was until he got home and seen that the entire right side of his dogs head was covered in blood from his ear down his neck.
What had happened was his kid had pulled so hard on the dogs ear that he tore the ear about 20% off. He knew it was not his dogs fault. Till the day that dog passed away, even though he was tormented by him, he would lay at his son's feet or side watching over him with a protective eye.

Any dog can be aggressive when provoked enough. But the sad fact is that there is a lot of human trash out there that want their dog to be mean and aggressive and allow it.

And this is your opinion from what you see in this life.

I have seen friendly family dogs go straight up pack animal given the opportunity to run with a pack.

To much to actually describe here just know I have seen Fido go right straight to aggressive pack animal hunter when the pack lets him in. Also seen a pack of area dogs attack other dogs just for sport.

They are dogs amigo. Environment is very important. Even to children. But dogs aint people.

 

[thelefthand]

F=MA

And calculating the acceleration in this event would be really, really hard.


So let's just look at energy:

E = (MV^2)/2

Not all of the energy transferred, so you'll have to use V1 - V2, where those represent the speed immediately prior, and immediately after impact.

30 mph is 13.4112 m/s, let's assume that the impact caused the vehicle to slow to 13 m/s - from 30mph to 29mph. (complete WAG on that).

E = (1750 kg * 0.4112m/s * .4112m/s) / 2
E = 148 Joules

That's just over 109 ft/lbs, or about 1/3 of the muzzle energy of a 230gr .45 ACP.

(yup, I'm a nerd)

Well, since conservation of momentum is the law of physics that governs impacts, I'd say your equations are useless. I'm not a nerd, just an engineer

 

[IndyBeerman]

Well, since conservation of momentum is the law of physics that governs impacts, I'd say your equations are useless. I'm not a nerd, just an engineer

Meh, engineer, my neighbor is one, he always says it's his job to squeeze 2 pounds of into a 1 pound space.

 

[thelefthand]

O

Meh, engineer, my neighbor is one, he always says it's his job to squeeze 2 pounds of into a 1 pound space.

Yeah, most of the time it means you're talking to someone who knows everything there is to know about absolutely nothing. Occasionally, you meet one that actually knows how to do things. Problem is that we all think we are that guy/gal. I'm lucky to work in a small group of people who are the real deal regardless of whether or not they have a piece of paper that says so. No idea why they let me into the group, but I'm happy to be there. My boss and his boss finally got tired of hearing "we told you that wouldn't work". It's now my job to tell them "NO, that's a stupid idea." I love it

 

[thelefthand]

Bird dogs have been bred for centuries to have a heightened sense of smell and in pointers, the instinct to freeze in position. Some of that can be improved by training but the instinct is there. Anyone that doubts that has never watched a Brittany pup react to a bird wing on a string.

Better yet, a 12 month old GSP working a field. Lots of dogs have a good sense of smell, but watching a pup work the wind, track a bird, and lock up on point and hold it indefinitely without an ounce of training being is amazing. Once the instincts kick in, bird dogs are an amazing example of what can be accomplished with selective breeding. If you own a bird dog, and it's never been allowed to hunt, you don't really know who your dog is. There's a precision machine wrapped up in there just waiting for it's switch to be turned on.

Just my 2 bits

 

[thelefthand]

One day I let my gf’s pitbull outside in her backyard as usual whenever he’d whine to go out at the back door. Her

That was an issue of dominance. I've seen it in breeds of all sizes, as well as in deer and other species. When an alpha sees a sign of weakness (including old age), especially from a non-alpha, they will take advantage of an opportunity if they find one. If you have a dog with an alpha personality, you have to recognize that and understand how to deal with it. It doesn't mean that the dog is a bad dog, it just means that extra training and precautions are needed to keep the dog in check. When done right, they are amazing companions and valuable additions to the family. When done poorly, you're probably going to end up on the nightly news.

 

[AtTheMurph]

Better yet, a 12 month old GSP working a field. Lots of dogs have a good sense of smell, but watching a pup work the wind, track a bird, and lock up on point and hold it indefinitely without an ounce of training being is amazing. Once the instincts kick in, bird dogs are an amazing example of what can be accomplished with selective breeding. If you own a bird dog, and it's never been allowed to hunt, you don't really know who your dog is. There's a precision machine wrapped up in there just waiting for it's switch to be turned on.

Just my 2 bits

Exactly. And when you own a pitbull, it is a dog that was bred to fight, bit and kill or be killed.

My bird dogs have all naturally pointed birds. They have pointed bugs, sparrows, robins, quail, pheasants, turkeys and peacocks too.

I'd hate to own a pitbull and suddenly see decide that now is the time to do what it was bred to do on some young kid, someone's dog, mothers, etc. They are designed to fight and bite harder than any other dogs. And they are designed to no let go once they do get a good hold with their teeth.

Sorry but I think it is totally dangerous to keep a dog designed to do those things as a pet. They may be fine pets. They probably will never do what they were bred to do if trained and socialized well enough, but they have that genetic material that may come out and any point in time and there won't be a damn thing that anyone can do about it when it does.

There are too many other breeds and mutts that a person can have as a pet that are not bred to fight, bite and kill.

 

[Amishman44]

IC 35-46-3-12:

A person who knowingly or intentionally kills a domestic animal without the consent of the owner of the domestic animal commits killing a domestic animal, a Level 6 felony.
(e) It is a defense to a prosecution under this section that the accused person:
(1) reasonably believes the conduct was necessary to:
(A) prevent injury to the accused person or another person;
(B) protect the property of the accused person from destruction or substantial damage;  or
(C) prevent a seriously injured vertebrate animal from prolonged suffering;  or
(2) engaged in a reasonable and recognized act of training, handling, or disciplining the vertebrate animal.

Note you can protect your property. Your dog is your property. Someone else's dog is not your property. Will a prosecutor draw a distinction? Do you care enough to find out?

Side note: If you carry a gun around the house, you never run out of the house unarmed. Stash guns suck. Carry guns are good. Something like an LCR is easy for even lazy slob pajamas carry.

Side side note: Dogs often ignore CS or treat it like water to the face. OC is more likely to get a pain response. Take a look at the active ingredients of dog repellant sprays and you'll see it's all OC or equivalent. Sprays made for humans are often a mix. Human spray often doesn't do much to dogs depending on the ratio, so plan accordingly. Don't rely on it to work on a dog or a person who is actually aggressive vs non-compliant.

A lot depends on one's interpretation of the situation and whether one feels or believes their physical safety or even life is in danger, or that of a loved one.

Going back 10+ years ago, when our kids were first entering school, and we would walk them to the school bus stop, our neighborhood fast transitioned to more rentals than homeowners and there were two families that decided that allowing their Pitbulls to run loose in their neighborhood in the mornings and again in the evenings was acceptable behavior in the neighborhood. While they never actually bit anyone, the aggressive behavior that the dogs displayed continuously got the police and Animal Control called on them several times, to which they did not especially appreciate or always respond to in a positive manner...in fact, verbal threats were made against 'anyone calling the cops on us'!
I carried the ability to defend myself and my two sons on our walk to the bus stop every morning. When two mother's found out that I did that, they thanked me for being willing to provide protection against the potential threat of attack by the two Pitbulls.
I speaking with my dad about it, in one of my statements to him, I can remember saying that my biggest concern wasn't in having to shoot one or both of the dogs, it was that if that event were to transpire that I was more concerned that I would end up having to defend myself from one or both of the dog's owners!
That being said, it's important to note that a dog or animal owner has a responsibility to keep their animal under control at all times, be it in their home, in a cage or behind a fence (one that the dog cannot get out of or over on their own), or on a leash held by an individual who is capable of handling the animal and prevent the dog from getting to someone or something after overpowering (aka, dragging) the individual on the opposite end of the leash!
I may not have the authority to tell someone else what to do, but I do have the right to protect myself and my loved one's against another's wrongful intent, deliberate actions, or simple incompetency!

 

[thelefthand]

Exactly. And when you own a pitbull, it is a dog that was bred to fight, bit and kill or be killed.

If I remember correctly, pitbulls were originally bread to protect children. My issue is less about what the dog was bred to do, and more about it's personality. I've seen bird dogs that hunt close, and wait on their handler when tracking a bird. I've seen others that hunt 100 yds out, only hold point for a few seconds, and chase the birds like beagles on a rabbit. The latter has always been a byproduct of the handlers bad habits, not the dogs pedigree.


To each their own, but I'm not going to hold someone's choice of dog breed against them. Being an irresponsible dog handler, on the other hand, is another issue.

 

[JettaKnight]

If I remember correctly, pitbulls were originally bread to protect children. My issue is less about what the dog was bred to do, and more about it's personality. I've seen bird dogs that hunt close, and wait on their handler when tracking a bird. I've seen others that hunt 100 yds out, only hold point for a few seconds, and chase the birds like beagles on a rabbit. The latter has always been a byproduct of the handlers bad habits, not the dogs pedigree.


To each their own, but I'm not going to hold someone's choice of dog breed against them. Being an irresponsible dog handler, on the other hand, is another issue.

You're going to have get a citation for that one.

APBT might do that job very well, but I'll leary that was the intended goal of a breeding program.


The rest of what you said is pretty much spot on.

Well, there's always exceptions... if you live in an NYC apartment and own a GSD or Husky, then, yes, I will hold that against the owner.

 

[T.Lex]

My opinion about APBTs has evolved over the last 20 years. After a couple negative interactions, I didn't see much value in them.

Now, it seems to me that "breeding of qualities" didn't end a hundred years ago. Breeding the non-aggressive APBTs should yield less aggressive APBTs. I mean, that's the process that is relied upon to say they are all bad. That process can also work (ostensibly) to breed out the bad.

I've seen that effort over the last 20 years or so, which means hundreds of litters.

So I can accept that certain ones are generally going to be non-aggressive. But, it is still a game of chance, with the downside risk being significant. Maybe in another 20 years, there will be better results.

 

[DragonGunner]

Went to get a trailer a friend of mine borrowed, I knew his pitt bull, scary but good dog, would never attack any dog smaller ever, but a bigger dog it would get into attack stance. Any way it gets out back door and his wife couldn't stop it and came for me attacking...I yelled his name and he slowed down then saw the gate wide open and made a dash for it. I yelled in a commanding voice "No!!" and dog stopped and came back in. So theres that. Had a Rottweiler next to us and attacked my wife and kids and they barely got in the house, wasn't there at the time but called the cops....nothing. A week later that same dog in yard and went outside with the shotgun and started at me, gave a warning shot in the air and just barked but went back home...called cops again...nothing. A week later dog in my yard tearing up a rug that was out drying...took shotgun out and yelled at it and he came full charge at me......I shot it. Neighbor called the cops I shot his dog......now cops decide to come out and asked why I shot it and I told them.....then I asked the cops how come they never came out when I called about it attacking my wife and kids? Wife told cops we had seen the neighbor also beating this dog and never kept it on his property. Cops left and went to talk to neighbor. Week later neighbor moved, cops never came back.

 

[Thor]

Good result...but a warning shot? Really?

 

[T.Lex]

Good result...but a warning shot? Really?

Welcome to INGO - you must be new here.

 

[MCgrease08]

I don't care what breed it was. If it goes after a GS (even an elderly one) unprovoked and does real damage, that's a problem dog. Like, unfixable.

I agree with the first point about a dog that kills another being a problem dog, but I don't believe any dog is unfixable.

I personally believe all dogs can be controlled and managed through good training and a handler that knows how to channel the dog's instinctual impulses. The problem is that most dog owners aren't willing to invest the time or effort to learn how to do that.