To Mask or Not to Mask?

[MCgrease08]

That would be correct.
Right to refuse service, and right to have trespassers removed.

The government also has the right to tell you to wear cloths, shoes, pants, shirt, even mask.
Why do you think no one is taking the mask orders to court in states with mandatory mask orders?

Just like the government can mandate you can't pipe disease carrying waste & sewage directly out into the environment, life jackets on boats, seat belts in passenger vehicles, not to drive drunk, speed limits and travel lane restrictions, ect.

You DON'T have the 'Right' to endanger others, the reason for requiring medical license for performing medical treatment, driving a car, etc.
They make SURE some random person with no education, or some warped idea doesn't try to run things.
After all, when these rules weren't in place, lead, poisons, even radio active materials wound up in food, medicine, and disease ran wild...

It's such a simple concept I honestly don't understand why it got turned political...
The big spikes in most states are 'Typhoid Marys' running around arguing they have some 'Right' to infect everyone.

I can't identify who's infected and who's not, and I can't shoot a virus.
If a simple piece of cloth stops it, reduces infection probably to 3% when around someone infected (intentionally infecting others or not) that's a 97% reduction in my chances of that dimwit infecting me.
If alcohol reduces the chances to under 1%, I'm using alcohol.

Turns out, I had several gallons of 100% IPA from my reloading lube mix, so I've been protecting myself since the very beginning.
I've also been working in the COVID hot spots since the beginning.
The issue is, I have to be correct every single time I come into contact with the unknown number (probably a few million) that WANT to spread this infection,
And THEY only have to be 'Lucky' once...

That's a pretty big "if." Care to show some data that comes even remotely close to backing up that number?

And I'm sorry, did you say there are probably a "few million" that want to spread COVID intentionally? Did the toaster whisper that in your ear, or is there some evidence that led you to this conclusion?

 

[dusty88]

My issue isn’t you doing what you believe to be best for you and your family. I’m a freedom loving American, you’re free to do whatever you feel is best for you and yours. My issue is when you try to force me to do something based on what you believe is best for you and your family. I do not subscribe to your beliefs and opinions, I hold my own, and should be free to do what I believe is best for me and my family.

This ^^^ is what has resulted in the complaining and virtue signaling, and mask shaming

Because some people wrongly claim it's a personal choice

This isn't a seatbelt or a helmet

This is more like carrying an unsafe weapon around

When you proclaim you are going to do as you darn well please and don't care about others, why be shocked when people think you are being selfish?

 

[Fullmag]

To mask is now what we have to do on company property. Word was handed down Thursday after corporate located in Texas has been spiking. It was not easy Friday but if you was lucky enough to be in front of a fan or in A/C it was tolerable other wise when it gets hot some are not going to do to well.

 

[d.kaufman]

I'll just start off saying I don't wear a mask. Through this whole Kung Flu crap the only thing that changed in my routine was not being able to go to my shooting ranges. I've worked a normal schedule. I interact with customers and drive their vehicles. I never stopped going to the gas station for Coffee in the morning or gas when I needed it. Still shop one day a week like usual (do all my running at once so that includes trips for groceries or anything else I may need at different stores). Never was much for going out to eat, but still did our usual take out or delivery every Friday.

I will bypass any store that mandates masks. I will take my money elsewhere. Its nothing political at all for me. I just dont see the need for it.

I will respect others rights and give them their space. But from all my experiences the ones wearing the mask aren't even thinking about social distancing and 90% do not wear the mask properly. So that tells me they're just virtue signaling or are complete and utter morons.

My opinion is if you wanna wear a mask, wear it. But wear it properly for Christs sake! And Dont beat me down because I dont wear one, which I have had zero bad interactions or looks for doing so by the way.

In today's day and age, with everything available on line and delivered to your door, if your that much at risk, or fear this that much, stay at home. It really is that simple

 

[JeepHammer]

Where's all the bio hazard bags/containers for all the contaminated PPE ?

Does this killer virus NOT spread from contaminated surfaces , ppe, gas pumps, shopping carts, etc?

Time.

The virus is only active 24-48 hours outside a host.
A little longer in fecal material, up to 72 hours, so bathrooms are a good place to find active virus spread around.

As far as gas pumps, common objects, that would be the reason for my spray bottle of alcohol.
Handle common objects, a little alcohol and let it air dry, only takes a few seconds.

I spray the mask when I'm not in public/around people, give it a few sprays and in 30 seconds dry & virus free.
Maybe 16 years of military biological warfare training made it easier for me, but it's pretty simple for about anyone.

 

[JeepHammer]

That's a pretty big "if." Care to show some data that comes even remotely close to backing up that number?

Sure, infectious disease research from the beginning of the 20th century to current.

While *YOU* apparently aren't aware of it, the world, and this country have experienced epidemics before...
From cholera, typhoid, tuberculosis, measles, mumps, rubella and a couple hundred others.
Let's not forget the pandemic is that started here in the US, 1918 Spanish 'Flu', Swine flu...

And the countless studies with operating room infections, mask & clean hands, sterile gloves/gowns drops post operative infections to under 1% when correct protocols are observed...
Unless you think that the medical staff go into operating rooms bare handed, dirty fingernailed, and spew whatever comes out of and off their bodies right into open wounds...

History, science, everything goes out the window when self absorbed extremists decide to open mouth before engaging brain...

And that's not insulting, it's exactly what's happening.
Someone completely self absorbed, no medical or scientific background, decides to throw up there version of how they think things are *Supposed* to work... And usually based on bad information & ignorance, and that never goes well...

The actual scientific/historical education has to be there in the first place, what primary school was supposed to be for, where you learn about the vaccines and antibotics, the process for isolating & studying the disease causing organisms, developing a treatment or vaccine.

And I'm sorry, did you say there are probably a "few million" that want to spread COVID intentionally?

I did.
Anyone that *Believes* (from the usual troll mills) that 'Herd Immunity' can be reached with the same virus type of the common cold,
And it's proven you can contract the virus over and over,
That it's a 'Good Idea' to spread it... See the big spikes in about all states to prove the point beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Did the toaster whisper that in your ear,

Just can't keep from insulting, degrading, can't keep it to facts... So insults happen...

or is there some evidence that led you to this conclusion?

How about every single piece of actual medical research since the scientific method was developed, refined, made precise.
That would be why every single medical professional advised to wear a mask & use alcohol disinfectant...
It would be the same reason masks & disinfectant is used in infectious disease wards/rooms in hospitals.

It's REALLY obvious, which is why I don't understand why some many millions can't understand it with at least 12 free years of education....
What were they doing for those 12 years?

 

[bwframe]

Sorry. Ya lost me at "12 free years of education."

Right...

 

[BugI02]

That would be correct.
Right to refuse service, and right to have trespassers removed.

The government also has the right to tell you to wear cloths, shoes, pants, shirt, even mask.
Why do you think no one is taking the mask orders to court in states with mandatory mask orders?

Just like the government can mandate you can't pipe disease carrying waste & sewage directly out into the environment, life jackets on boats, seat belts in passenger vehicles, not to drive drunk, speed limits and travel lane restrictions, ect.

You DON'T have the 'Right' to endanger others, the reason for requiring medical license for performing medical treatment, driving a car, etc.
They make SURE some random person with no education, or some warped idea doesn't try to run things.
After all, when these rules weren't in place, lead, poisons, even radio active materials wound up in food, medicine, and disease ran wild...

It's such a simple concept I honestly don't understand why it got turned political...
The big spikes in most states are 'Typhoid Marys' running around arguing they have some 'Right' to infect everyone.

I can't identify who's infected and who's not, and I can't shoot a virus.
If a simple piece of cloth stops it, reduces infection probably to 3% when around someone infected (intentionally infecting others or not) that's a 97% reduction in my chances of that dimwit infecting me.
If alcohol reduces the chances to under 1%, I'm using alcohol.

Turns out, I had several gallons of 100% IPA from my reloading lube mix, so I've been protecting myself since the very beginning.
I've also been working in the COVID hot spots since the beginning.
The issue is, I have to be correct every single time I come into contact with the unknown number (probably a few million) that WANT to spread this infection,
And THEY only have to be 'Lucky' once...

Still can't figure out what ... orifice ... you pull your numbers from

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-1342
Effectiveness of Surgical and Cotton Masks in Blocking SARS–CoV-2: A Controlled Comparison in 4 Patients

Discussion: Neither surgical nor cotton masks effectively filtered SARS–CoV-2 during coughs by infected patients. Prior evidence that surgical masks effectively filtered influenza virus (1) informed recommendations that patients with confirmed or suspected COVID-19 should wear face masks to prevent transmission (2). However, the size and concentrations of SARS–CoV-2 in aerosols generated during coughing are unknown. Oberg and Brousseau (3) demonstrated that surgical masks did not exhibit adequate filter performance against aerosols measuring 0.9, 2.0, and 3.1 μm in diameter. Lee and colleagues (4) showed that particles 0.04 to 0.2 μm can penetrate surgical masks. The size of the SARS–CoV particle from the 2002–2004 outbreak was estimated as 0.08 to 0.14 μm (5); assuming that SARS-CoV-2 has a similar size, surgical masks are unlikely to effectively filter this virus.

In conclusion, both surgical and cotton masks seem to be ineffective in preventing the dissemination of SARS–CoV-2 from the coughs of patients with COVID-19 to the environment and external mask surface.

 

[BugI02]

This ^^^ is what has resulted in the complaining and virtue signaling, and mask shaming

Because some people wrongly claim it's a personal choice

This isn't a seatbelt or a helmet

This is more like carrying an unsafe weapon around

When you proclaim you are going to do as you darn well please and don't care about others, why be shocked when people think you are being selfish?

You mean mask shaming like that? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

You mean mask shaming like that? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yeah, me, acting in my own self interest, I am not being selfish. You, demanding that I act in a way that you find approval of, is.

 

[BugI02]

To mask is now what we have to do on company property. Word was handed down Thursday after corporate located in Texas has been spiking. It was not easy Friday but if you was lucky enough to be in front of a fan or in A/C it was tolerable other wise when it gets hot some are not going to do to well.

My wife has had to mask at work since they re-opened, and comfort was a real problem. She has switched to masks with ties instead of any kind of elastic ear loops and she says it makes a big difference in comfort. If you are allowed to make your own masks, it might be worth trying out

 

[MCgrease08]

Sure, infectious disease research from the beginning of the 20th century to current.

While *YOU* apparently aren't aware of it, the world, and this country have experienced epidemics before...
From cholera, typhoid, tuberculosis, measles, mumps, rubella and a couple hundred others.
Let's not forget the pandemic is that started here in the US, 1918 Spanish 'Flu', Swine flu...

And the countless studies with operating room infections, mask & clean hands, sterile gloves/gowns drops post operative infections to under 1% when correct protocols are observed...
Unless you think that the medical staff go into operating rooms bare handed, dirty fingernailed, and spew whatever comes out of and off their bodies right into open wounds...

History, science, everything goes out the window when self absorbed extremists decide to open mouth before engaging brain...

And that's not insulting, it's exactly what's happening.
Someone completely self absorbed, no medical or scientific background, decides to throw up there version of how they think things are *Supposed* to work... And usually based on bad information & ignorance, and that never goes well...

The actual scientific/historical education has to be there in the first place, what primary school was supposed to be for, where you learn about the vaccines and antibotics, the process for isolating & studying the disease causing organisms, developing a treatment or vaccine.



I did.
Anyone that *Believes* (from the usual troll mills) that 'Herd Immunity' can be reached with the same virus type of the common cold,
And it's proven you can contract the virus over and over,
That it's a 'Good Idea' to spread it... See the big spikes in about all states to prove the point beyond a shadow of a doubt.



Just can't keep from insulting, degrading, can't keep it to facts... So insults happen...



How about every single piece of actual medical research since the scientific method was developed, refined, made precise.
That would be why every single medical professional advised to wear a mask & use alcohol disinfectant...
It would be the same reason masks & disinfectant is used in infectious disease wards/rooms in hospitals.

It's REALLY obvious, which is why I don't understand why some many millions can't understand it with at least 12 free years of education....
What were they doing for those 12 years?

I apologize for the toaster crack. You're right that it was insulting. I'd also add juvenile and generally unproductive. I am sorry I posted that and it doesn't do anything but take away from the conversation.

That said, you went from (paraphasing) 'a simple piece of fabric drops the rate of infection down to 3% and down to 1% with alcohol' to, 'the proof is in studying surgical level protocols in operating rooms.' That's quite the switcheroo.

Also, there are not millions who think it's a "good idea" to spread it, nor do big spikes in other states prove that "beyond a shadow of a doubt."

And claiming "every single medical professional advised to wear a mask & use alcohol disinfectant..." is simply nonsense.

 

[dusty88]

Yeah, me, acting in my own self interest, I am not being selfish. You, demanding that I act in a way that you find approval of, is.

Actually , no it's not (though I'm not personally interested in chasing anyone down or pointing a finger at them)

Being concerned that someone is going to spread infection throughout society isn't selfish. You can argue but at least get some basics down.

Over 700 healthcare workers have died of Covid 19. Untold others have died from outbreaks in hospitals. People trying to be careful and do everything right are still put at risk by people who were (in some cases) unlucky themselves. But to choose to refuse an inconvenience that might reduce transmission during a pandemic is either ignorant or selfish. It's nothing else.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Actually , no it's not (though I'm not personally interested in chasing anyone down or pointing a finger at them)

Being concerned that someone is going to spread infection throughout society isn't selfish. You can argue but at least get some basics down.

Over 700 healthcare workers have died of Covid 19. Untold others have died from outbreaks in hospitals. People trying to be careful and do everything right are still put at risk by people who were (in some cases) unlucky themselves. But to choose to refuse an inconvenience that might reduce transmission during a pandemic is either ignorant or selfish. It's nothing else.

Sure it is. It’s called freedom to pursue our own happiness. I will recognize some common ground with you in one respect: If I have symptoms or know that I’ve been in close contact (eg living with a family member) of a person that is infected and go about like any other day, yes, that is wrong.

 

[dusty88]

Sure it is. It’s called freedom to pursue our own happiness. I will recognize some common ground with you in one respect: If I have symptoms or know that I’ve been in close contact (eg living with a family member) of a person that is infected and go about like any other day, yes, that is wrong.

then please consider this most current information
"[FONT=&quot]Specifically, if 17.9% of infections are asymptomatic ([/FONT]5[FONT=&quot]), we found that the presymptomatic stage and asymptomatic infections account for 48% and 3.4% of transmission, respectively ([/FONT]Fig. 1A[FONT=&quot]). Considering a greater asymptomatic proportion of 30.8% reported in another empirical study ([/FONT]6[FONT=&quot]), the presymptomatic phase and asymptomatic infections account for 47% and 6.6% of transmission, respectively ([/FONT]Fig. 1B[FONT=&quot]). Consequently, even immediate isolation of all symptomatic cases is insufficient to achieve control ([/FONT]Fig. 1[FONT=&quot]). Specifically, mean attack rates remain above 25% of the population when 17.9% of infections are asymptomatic and above 28% when 30.8% of infectious are asymptomatic."

[/FONT]https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/07/02/2008373117

Everything we know about this virus may be disproven later. Those who are MOST knowledgeable understand that. Part of that understanding of the unknown is that we don't know if it might be causing chronic disease, as well as the deaths.

I was one of the people that thought masks were silly in March. Maybe they will turn out to be silly. But as of now, there is both anecdoctal and partial scientific evidence that they help.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[foszoe]

Yeah, me, acting in my own self interest, I am not being selfish.

That's pretty much the definition of selfish.

 

[MRockwell]

That would be correct.
Right to refuse service, and right to have trespassers removed.

The government also has the right to tell you to wear cloths, shoes, pants, shirt, even mask.
Why do you think no one is taking the mask orders to court in states with mandatory mask orders?

https://www.thecentersquare.com/ill...cle_1d62b6fe-bfc4-11ea-bca8-033543959e7e.html
"There’s the case Illinois Republicans have in federal court against the governor’s crowd limits, the lawsuits businesses have in state courts against the governor’s orders, and filing a motion for summary judgment against regulations for masks and temperature checks for schools."

https://www.fox17online.com/news/lo...f-wont-enforce-whitmers-new-mask-requirements
"Her emergency powers authority is being challenged in court, but Whitmer cites a 1945 act as the basis of her actions the last few months."

https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...ears-mask-order-going-into-effect/5412862002/

Just a quick google search shows there are court challenges.
But hey, I'm no lawyer

 

[churchmouse]

I apologize for the toaster crack. You're right that it was insulting. I'd also add juvenile and generally unproductive. I am sorry I posted that and it doesn't do anything but take away from the conversation.

That said, you went from (paraphasing) 'a simple piece of fabric drops the rate of infection down to 3% and down to 1% with alcohol' to, 'the proof is in studying surgical level protocols in operating rooms.' That's quite the switcheroo.

Also, there are not millions who think it's a "good idea" to spread it, nor do big spikes in other states prove that "beyond a shadow of a doubt."

And claiming "every single medical professional advised to wear a mask & use alcohol disinfectant..." is simply nonsense.

Bingo across the board.

 

[BugI02]

then please consider this most current information
"[FONT=&amp]Specifically, if 17.9% of infections are asymptomatic ([/FONT]5[FONT=&amp]), we found that the presymptomatic stage and asymptomatic infections account for 48% and 3.4% of transmission, respectively ([/FONT]Fig. 1A[FONT=&amp]). Considering a greater asymptomatic proportion of 30.8% reported in another empirical study ([/FONT]6[FONT=&amp]), the presymptomatic phase and asymptomatic infections account for 47% and 6.6% of transmission, respectively ([/FONT]Fig. 1B[FONT=&amp]). Consequently, even immediate isolation of all symptomatic cases is insufficient to achieve control ([/FONT]Fig. 1[FONT=&amp]). Specifically, mean attack rates remain above 25% of the population when 17.9% of infections are asymptomatic and above 28% when 30.8% of infectious are asymptomatic."

[/FONT]https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/07/02/2008373117

Everything we know about this virus may be disproven later. Those who are MOST knowledgeable understand that. Part of that understanding of the unknown is that we don't know if it might be causing chronic disease, as well as the deaths.

I was one of the people that thought masks were silly in March. Maybe they will turn out to be silly. But as of now, there is both anecdoctal and partial scientific evidence that they help.

[FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]

Your cite, from the abstract

To quantify the population-level contribution of silent transmission to COVID-19 spread, we extended our previous model (2, 3) to include asymptomatic infections and the presymptomatic stage, parameterized with data regarding the trajectory of symptom onset and the proportion of secondary cases generated in each stage of infection (1, 4). As empirical studies indicate that asymptomatic infections account for 17.9 to 30.8% of all infections (5, 6), for both of these values, we quantified the proportion of the attack rate attributable to transmission during presymptomatic, asymptomatic, and symptomatic stages. Furthermore, this quantification was combined with a series of scenario analyses to identify the level of isolation required for symptomatic or silently infected individuals, to suppress the attack rate below 1%.

Another model based study? Because the other ones proved so precise and useful?

How about NO

 

[dusty88]

Your cite, from the abstract



Another model based study? Because the other ones proved so precise and useful?

How about NO

You can't wait until this is over to make rational choices. We're only talking about putting on a mask not cutting off your testicle