What do you think about church?

[flightsimmer]

3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy
place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul
unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of
his salvation. Psalm 24:3-5

We all know that salvation is of God through the life, death, and resurrection
and ascension of His Son. We also need to know that we have a responsibility
once we are saved to live the life of one that is. David writes that those that
will ascend into the hill of the Lord is he or she that has clean hands and a
pure heart. That is, those who understand that God alone can save and that they
were not saved at all by their own merits. We are all expected to live holy
lives. I know that this seems harsh to some but to me it is a blessing to know
that I have that God-given ability to do so. God promised me in His written
word that He would saved me from my personal sins and that He would cleanse me
from anything that was not righteous. To cleanse means to purify and to make
whole again. Sin had destroyed me but God has restored me. He resurrected me
to live again in Christ and by Christ and through Christ. The wages of sin is
death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.
So many just don't get it. Once God saves us, He expects us to live a life of
life and not death. Sin is death but righteousness is life. It is not that God
expects us to be perfect in the eyes of our fellows, He expects us to have that
perfect desire to please Him with our lives and a perfect desire to win others
to Him. We have, by salvation and sanctification, entered into God's holy hill.
That hill is called Zion. Zion is the church. The church is what God added you
to the very moment you received forgiveness for your sins. At that moment you
was redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God and God added your name to His
church rolls. That church membership is what counts. When the end of time
comes either for us individually or as the collective body of Christ, this is
the book that God will look into to see if our name is there. If it is not
there it will not matter wherever else it might be.
Question is, are you saved by the blood of the Lamb of God? The question is
not whether you are a church member unless that church is God's church and I
don't mean that in any denominational sense. My hope and pray is that all that
read this Manna is redeemed and members of the church of the living God.
God bless and go and have a great day.

Reprinted from the Daily Manna by Pastor Paul Kirby.

 

[JettaKnight]

Such as churches like this one?

First Baptist Church to Ordain Gay, Transgender Ministers ? Charisma News

Baptist? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!




This issue is separating the wheat from the chaff.

 

[BE Mike]

Exactly the way I understand it. I think it's the understanding that one must repent and turning away that's tripping up so many.

Is one sin worse than another? I don't think my church would allow a heterosexual pastor or church officer who was living with another as husband or wife but without benefit of marriage to continue in office. There are folks out there who regularly attend church, but are in the same situation. Many of them don't consider it a sin, and therefore aren't repentant. Not much difference from what the homosexual members believe. Sin is a messy can of worms. Dealing with it isn't a black or white issue. Unless it becomes a huge issue for the church, it tends to be ignored. Still, as others have stated, there is a difference in accepting unrepentant sinners and condoning the sin. Like has been said, "Hate the sin, but love the sinner!" As a church, we should probably let all sinners, even those unrepentant ones, know that they are welcome and accept them with open arms. We should pray for them and want the Holy Spirit to enter and reveal the truth. After all, we weak little sinners, should just do as we are commanded and let God handle the important stuff. "...They are weak, but He is strong..."

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Is one sin worse than another? I don't think my church would allow a heterosexual pastor or church officer who was living with another as husband or wife but without benefit of marriage to continue in office. There are folks out there who regularly attend church, but are in the same situation. Many of them don't consider it a sin, and therefore aren't repentant. Not much difference from what the homosexual members believe. Sin is a messy can of worms. Dealing with it isn't a black or white issue. Unless it becomes a huge issue for the church, it tends to be ignored. Still, as others have stated, there is a difference in accepting unrepentant sinners and condoning the sin. Like has been said, "Hate the sin, but love the sinner!" As a church, we should probably let all sinners, even those unrepentant ones, know that they are welcome and accept them with open arms. We should pray for them and want the Holy Spirit to enter and reveal the truth. After all, we weak little sinners, should just do as we are commanded and let God handle the important stuff. "...They are weak, but He is strong..."

I can't arue with anything you said. However when a church participates in the continuation of a sin or sinful lifestyle, that's a different matter, in my opinion. We all have to abide by what our conscience dictates. As for me, if I found mysef in the situation similar to the one in the article that I posted a few posts back, my conscience would dictate that I get up and leave and find a new place to worship. YMMV.

 

[foszoe]

Is one sin worse than another? I don't think my church would allow a heterosexual pastor or church officer who was living with another as husband or wife but without benefit of marriage to continue in office. There are folks out there who regularly attend church, but are in the same situation. Many of them don't consider it a sin, and therefore aren't repentant. Not much difference from what the homosexual members believe. Sin is a messy can of worms. Dealing with it isn't a black or white issue. Unless it becomes a huge issue for the church, it tends to be ignored. Still, as others have stated, there is a difference in accepting unrepentant sinners and condoning the sin. Like has been said, "Hate the sin, but love the sinner!" As a church, we should probably let all sinners, even those unrepentant ones, know that they are welcome and accept them with open arms. We should pray for them and want the Holy Spirit to enter and reveal the truth. After all, we weak little sinners, should just do as we are commanded and let God handle the important stuff. "...They are weak, but He is strong..."

Would you agree that the leadership of the church is tasked with deciding when acceptance of the unrepentant sinner is doing more harm than good both for the congregation and the sinner?

 

[BE Mike]

Would you agree that the leadership of the church is tasked with deciding when acceptance of the unrepentant sinner is doing more harm than good both for the congregation and the sinner?

I think I addressed your question when I stated "Unless it becomes a huge issue for the church, it tends to be ignored".
That being said, there should be a process, based on scripture, to deal with it. It should be an act of love towards the sinner with the intent of helping him or her. Giving up a pattern of sinful behavior isn't an easy task. Dealing with it, when it becomes a public issue, is a delicate matter for a congregation. Most of the time congregations aren't successful in dealing with it, leaving the individual feeling persecuted and never wanting to return. The individual many times has feelings that the members of the congregation are hypocrites and "holier than thou". Nobody likes being called out for bad behavior. Unless one feels compelled by the Holy Spirit to change from within, there will be no real change. This is another reason why the feel good prosperity churches are growing. They keep telling folks what they want to hear and make them feel good about themselves without them having to change. IMHO, being repentant, asking for forgiveness and receiving it (not what I do but by the Grace of the Lord) is the only way to really feel good about myself and my relationship with God. That burden, being lifted, really changes folks, because it comes from God, not men.

 

[trucker777]

I do not go to church. That said; I have a shepherd, I keep the faith, and fellowship with other believers pretty much daily. I'm not proud that i dont belong to a congregation, sometimes I wish I did... but church is just not the same for me as it was when I was a kid... I don't know why, maybe it's the music, (too worldly and emotional for me) certainly the preaching seems different in the sense that everything seems so focused on self centeredness. Honestly, I've been in some churches that you couldn't differentiate from an Elks club or a bar.

 

[rambone]

[SUP]"[/SUP]And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." -- Hebrews 10:24-25

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God." -- Colossians 3:16

 

[bulletsmith]

I can't arue with anything you said. However when a church participates in the continuation of a sin or sinful lifestyle, that's a different matter, in my opinion. We all have to abide by what our conscience dictates. As for me, if I found mysef in the situation similar to the one in the article that I posted a few posts back, my conscience would dictate that I get up and leave and find a new place to worship. YMMV.

On the surface I have to say I agree. However, with a little contemplation, I arrive at the realization that the church (congregation) is probably quite full of unrepentant. Each one of us fail to end sinful behavior in our daily life.

I am quite intolerant when it comes to the homosexual issue, but I will not presume to judge someones eligibility to participate in a church. Can a Church leader be effective and still live a life of sin? Well I sure hope so....

 

[IndyDave1776]

On the surface I have to say I agree. However, with a little contemplation, I arrive at the realization that the church (congregation) is probably quite full of unrepentant. Each one of us fail to end sinful behavior in our daily life.

I am quite intolerant when it comes to the homosexual issue, but I will not presume to judge someones eligibility to participate in a church. Can a Church leader be effective and still live a life of sin? Well I sure hope so....

Good answer! I suppose my position comes down to the question of whether the church is accepting the fact that sin is an unavoidable part of the human condition, turning a blind eye to sin (including avoiding preaching that it is not acceptable), condoning sin, enabling sin, or encouraging sin, with answers varying according to the situation.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

On the surface I have to say I agree. However, with a little contemplation, I arrive at the realization that the church (congregation) is probably quite full of unrepentant. Each one of us fail to end sinful behavior in our daily life.

I am quite intolerant when it comes to the homosexual issue, but I will not presume to judge someones eligibility to participate in a church. Can a Church leader be effective and still live a life of sin? Well I sure hope so....

I think you missed the point of my comment. I wholeheartedly agree with your first paragraph. As for your second paragraph, would you be a part of a ministry where you knew the pastor was an unapologetic, serial, adulterer or thief? (Or pick whatever sin you choose) We all are weak. We all fall short, we can fall to temptation. That is one thing. But to embrace the temptations and/or sins, with no intention to try to turn away and "sin no more" from them is, in my understanding, abhorrant to God.

 

[bulletsmith]

I think you missed the point of my comment. I wholeheartedly agree with your first paragraph. As for your second paragraph, would you be a part of a ministry where you knew the pastor was an unapologetic, serial, adulterer or thief? (Or pick whatever sin you choose) We all are weak. We all fall short, we can fall to temptation. That is one thing. But to embrace the temptations and/or sins, with no intention to try to turn away and "sin no more" from them is, in my understanding, abhorrant to God.

No, I probably would not find it easy to stay, I would probably leave.

My secondary point was that I suspect some leaders have unresolved issues that are kept from the public eye. They may be working on it, but may not be there yet (if ever ). I'm just saying that I'm not qualified to determine if they should be allowed to continue. It is God's house, not mine.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

No, I probably would not find it easy to stay, I would probably leave.

My secondary point was that I suspect some leaders have unresolved issues that are kept from the public eye. They may be working on it, but may not be there yet (if ever ). I'm just saying that I'm not qualified to determine if they should be allowed to continue. It is God's house, not mine.

I hope we agree on unresolved issues where one is in the process of trying rid themself of and those in which one celebrates and holds up as normal. But I disagree with your last point. You, singularly, may not have the power to make the final determination on whether a pastor ought to stay but you, through the membership, and/or the leaders of the church do. Pastors do get fired from time to time. But as you indicate, you singularly have they power to decide to remove yourself from a situation in which you have disagreements.

 

[bulletsmith]

I hope we agree on unresolved issues where one is in the process of trying rid themself of and those in which one celebrates and holds up as normal. But I disagree with your last point. You, singularly, may not have the power to make the final determination on whether a pastor ought to stay but you, through the membership, and/or the leaders of the church do. Pastors do get fired from time to time. But as you indicate, you singularly have they power to decide to remove yourself from a situation in which you have disagreements.

So you are saying that I would vote with my feet. I get it, and I would have to agree with your statement. To be honest, I think I would be that guy that would go to that person and tell them why they are wrong. I know there is the whole "Judge not, lest ye be judged" thing that seems to be misused so much today, but I believe that we also have a responsibility to tell each other when we are going astray. At the same time, we have to make sure our own house is in order first. It aint simple, is it?

 

[GuitarGunman]

Praying that you will have an encounter with God that is so authentic; you will not become disillusioned nor become disappointed by those who attend certain fellowships , or other believers in general. People and organizations will fail you. God will never fail you.. When people say they do not feel His relevancy in their lives anymore, dig this; God does not change.... So if they don't feel close to God or His people anymore; guess who either moved away from Him or need to make the change back to relevancy? The Church is not a building, association nor a exclusive society... It's made of people who understand that we are imperfect beings, desiring a sense of wholeness that only can be achieved by making the decision to trust in and follow the Lord & Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

So you are saying that I would vote with my feet. I get it, and I would have to agree with your statement. To be honest, I think I would be that guy that would go to that person and tell them why they are wrong. I know there is the whole "Judge not, lest ye be judged" thing that seems to be misused so much today, but I believe that we also have a responsibility to tell each other when we are going astray. At the same time, we have to make sure our own house is in order first. It aint simple, is it?

I think we're pretty much in agreement. The part about the plank in our eyes thing, as I understand it doesn't mean (to use an analogy) just because I'm fat, I shouldn't recommend that you should quit smoking. If I hold my self up as more righteous because I'm not "one of those nasty cigarette smokers", that's when I'd better check into Weight Watchers first.

By the same token, if you see me eating myself into oblivion, it is your duty, as my brother, to help me see the errors of my ways and we help each other recover.

 

[bulletsmith]

I think we're pretty much in agreement. The part about the plank in our eyes thing, as I understand it doesn't mean (to use an analogy) just because I'm fat, I shouldn't recommend that you should quit smoking. If I hold my self up as more righteous because I'm not "one of those nasty cigarette smokers", that's when I'd better check into Weight Watchers first.

By the same token, if you see me eating myself into oblivion, it is your duty, as my brother, to help me see the errors of my ways and we help each other recover.

Exactly. Wait, what just happened?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Exactly. Wait, what just happened?

 

[zspeed130]

This has probably been said but Often I attend because I know that its Gods will that I not forsake fellowship with the body. So many (not picking on anyone who may have said this but I will speak the truth ) claim Their spiritual life is "personal" Well Christ didn't see it that way ( I won't go into minutia). My dad doesn't attend though he is a believer and uses the excuse that he can worship wherever he is, Which is factually true but functionally isn't what God intended. I have gone through a very very busy time in my life the last five years and often feel like I am only showing up because I am supposed to. But I also usually find it really uplifts me and keeps me closer to the body and closer to the right track in my life.

Just my .02

Z

 

[JettaKnight]

ZSpeed's discussion of church attendance and GFGT's discussion of judgement dovetail into each other in my the lesson I gave last night on Ephesians 4. Paul calls all Christians to join together in unity in humility and patience.

We (Christians) are all running the race. There's a difference in judgement - are you doing it in a way that shoves your fellow runners to the ground and tramples over them or are you doing it in a way that helps keep running and stumbling off the path. If you're running alone it's easy to wander off and slouch, but in a group we can all help each other.