Virginia Police Admit The Drug War Has Been Lost

[jamil]

There is no real difference between alcohol abuse and drug abuse. Both can destroy your body. Both encourage you to do stupid things. Both encourage you to lose your job and your friends and destroy your life.

Do you know why you see more damage done from drugs? Because of prohibition. Alcohol is cheap and easy to get. You can spend your life drunk just by panhandling, if that's your goal in life.

Thanks to prohibition, drugs are expensive. If you want to spend your life high, you're going to have to start stealing from people, prostituting yourself, working for drug dealers, etc.

There is no logically consistent way to justify your support for drug prohibition without also supporting alcohol prohibition. It is pure hypocrisy.

That's not completely true. Drugs like meth can turn a young person old much faster than simply aging or alcohol abuse. Even so, if we want to use that as a reason to go to war, we still need to justify the threshold that causes us to war on one and not the other.

 

[steveh_131]

What is my "speed"

one liners

straw men

bad spelling
strange line spacing

no punctuation?

certainly no discernible point

 

[steveh_131]

That's not completely true. Drugs like meth can turn a young person old much faster than simply aging or alcohol abuse. Even so, if we want to use that as a reason to go to war, we still need to justify the threshold that causes us to war on one and not the other.

yeah yeah, you and your arbitrary thresholds

 

[D-Ric902]

one liners

straw men

bad spelling
strange line spacing

no punctuation?

certainly no discernible point

thats the best you can do
keep trying

 

[jamil]

yeah yeah, you and your arbitrary thresholds

Well in this case, that's the point. I know, even though you've offered some utilitarian arguments here, you don't care for them. For you this is just about the ideological precept. But if you were to argue purely on ideology, you'd not have enough support to win. Most people respond to utilitarian arguments because it's easier to think, is this better or worse? Is this workable or not? Are we really solving a problem or making it worse? At what point is the juice worth the squeeze?

You've seen some people who are not libertarian idealists express frustration with the war on drugs, especially some of the INGO cops. They see it's not working. It's not making anything better. It's putting people in jail who aren't dangerous to others, while using up resources that could go to people who are truly dangerous. The reason to stop isn't to fulfill some ideological precept. The reason to stop is precisely because of utility.

 

[steveh_131]

Well in this case, that's the point. I know, even though you've offered some utilitarian arguments here, you don't care for them. For you this is just about the ideological precept. But if you were to argue purely on ideology, you'd not have enough support to win. Most people respond to utilitarian arguments because it's easier to think, is this better or worse? Is this workable or not? Are we really solving a problem or making it worse? At what point is the juice worth the squeeze?

You've seen some people who are not libertarian idealists express frustration with the war on drugs, especially some of the INGO cops. They see it's not working. It's not making anything better. It's putting people in jail who aren't dangerous to others, while using up resources that could go to people who are truly dangerous. The reason to stop isn't to fulfill some ideological precept. The reason to stop is precisely because of utility.

Yeah I know, I'm good at arguing on the utilitarian front too. Especially on this topic, the evidence is so overwhelmingly in favor of deregulation.

It just gets tiresome.

 

[Dean C.]

Inmate yearly housing costs - $28,000 https://www.federalregister.gov/art...etermination-of-average-cost-of-incarceration
Methadone drug treatment - $4,700 Is drug addiction treatment worth its cost? | National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA)
National recidivation rate for drug offenses - 66.7% Bureau of Justice Statistics Reentry Trends in the U.S.: Recidivism

So I think there is a definite financial benefit to focusing on a more treatment bases approach versus our correctional systems current warehousing punitive style of corrections that offers little to no resources for inmates to seek treatment to help lower the recidivation rate. Or better yet we can legalize and tax allot of these drugs (I would bet my last dollar the number of users would not go up) this would also help eliminate the people who die from taking drugs cut with say cyanide for instance, and like Colorado and Washington the country could reap the tax benefits.

Yes we would have to downsize police forces (sorry guys....) and thus reduce spending on police and correctional facilities (While doing away with the entire DEA). Economically and socially this would be a win win for everyone (but the police). But then again I might just be ranting because no one cares about recidivation rates and how much they are costing this country, if we are going to put someone in prison they need to be treated through the use of cognitive behavioral therapy (a proven method of reducing recidivation amongst high and low risk offenders alike.

Currently our justice systems approach towards drugs is just pitiful, I know people who were sent to rehab for pot use..... I really wish I could say thats a joke.

 

[D-Ric902]

I have been made intimately aware of the methadone treatment system

and it's a waste of $4,700

 

[churchmouse]

I do believe the point I was making with my friends demise is that this is a "Choice"
Prohibition did not stop him.
Counseling/rehab did not work for him.
Choices are hard if not impossible to regulate even with education.
Until we can find the root cause that make these decisions seem OK to make there will be no change.
If we want to get on top of this there will have to be change in the mind set at the user level. No user, no dealer.
Screw legalization. I can in no way see this as a good idea. JMHO of course.

 

[steveh_131]

I have been made intimately aware of the methadone treatment system

and it's a waste of $4,700

The efficacy of methadone maintenance interventions in reducing illicit opiate use, HIV risk behavior and criminality: a meta-analysis. - PubMed - NCBI

Results demonstrate a consistent, statistically significant relationship between MMT and the reduction of illicit opiate use, HIV risk behaviors and drug and property-related criminal behaviors. The effectiveness of MMT is most apparent in its ability to reduce drug-related criminal behaviors. MMT had a moderate effect in reducing illicit opiate use and drug and property-related criminal behaviors, and a small to moderate effect in reducing HIV risk behaviors.

 

[Dean C.]

I have been made intimately aware of the methadone treatment system

and it's a waste of $4,700

This seems promising - New Study Suggests Alternative to Methadone Is More Effective - WSJ

 

[D-Ric902]

In my experience (fairy extensive in Allen, Steuben counties)

methadone and AA/NA treatments and groups are a complete and total waste of taxes. I have personally seen AA/NA groups turn into party groups after session meetings.
Methadone has been used as a dodge to pass drug screens as well as Doctor shopping.

listen very carefully (esp. Steve)
you cannot sentence someone to want to get clean

you cannot deregulation someone clean

you cannot legalize your way out of a drug problem

Making drugs legal doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it legal to be an addict
(end of speech, rant, and oxygen waste)

 

[MisterChester]

It won't help. You already poo-pooed one of the education programs out there, what makes you think the .gov will all of a sudden be able to create an effective educational program(s) if they haven't already? Just because some war has been called? Your faith in the .gov is greater than mine.

When the tax dollars start get directed to rehab programs, that's where the opportunists, the community activists, and all manner of people ready to cash in on the taxpayer funded largess will go to get their share. All the while, we'll get fleeced, the drug addicts will be sustained and kept alive and we'll be no better off.

If government is not the answer to stop people from doing drugs, it is not the answer to stop people from doing drugs.

I agree. I hate the idea of the government needing to do either option. It would be better spent on educating youth before they have a chance to do this. Some will always slip through the cracks but I think it would help drastically reduce the numbers. The DARE program is a proven failure, and I think it should be replaced. Telling kids to "just say no" is an awful way to go about it. Any sensible parent would want some help in educating their kid to not do drugs. Along with good parenting and resources to back it I think would certainly improve the situation.

 

[Denny347]

Anyone interested in the current state of the "War on Drugs" and possible solutions out of the mess we are in should read this.



It has really changed some fundamental beliefs I held as a LEO. It is a very good read, it was just published.

 

[jbombelli]

I should have applied purple?
how many threads could be merged into this one? 6? More?

epic dead horse beating

Yet another troll thread

major argument bait

pro drug legalization group self stroking circle

is that clear enough?

My bad. I thought you were serious when you said you wanted an adult discussion that didn't devolve into namecalling. I guess I should have known better.

 

[D-Ric902]

My bad. I thought you were serious when you said you wanted an adult discussion that didn't devolve into namecalling. I guess I should have known better.

One hasn't happened about this issue yet.

why would I think it would change
so far the posters and OP that start these thread don't want solutions to the drug problem in this country.
The want excuses to legalize their favorites. Excuses are easy, as evidenced by the numerous thread that devolve into the same thing this one has.

solutions are hard and don't include getting high legally. And ending the war n drugs won't include writing anyone a refund check for the savings.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Anyone interested in the current state of the "War on Drugs" and possible solutions out of the mess we are in should read this.



It has really changed some fundamental beliefs I held as a LEO. It is a very good read, it was just published.

I am interested in your thoughts before and after reading the book. Do you mind giving a cliff notes version of your fundamental beliefs before and after reading it? I don't expect you to condense and provide the argument laid out in the book, but I am very interested in hearing your "before and after" positions.

 

[Cerberus]

In my experience (fairy extensive in Allen, Steuben counties)

methadone and AA/NA treatments and groups are a complete and total waste of taxes. I have personally seen AA/NA groups turn into party groups after session meetings.
Methadone has been used as a dodge to pass drug screens as well as Doctor shopping.

listen very carefully (esp. Steve)
you cannot sentence someone to want to get clean

You shockingly get this point right

you cannot deregulation someone clean

You can't regulate someone clean either

you cannot legalize your way out of a drug problem

Can't illegalize your way out of a drug problem either

Making drugs legal doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it legal to be an addict
(end of speech, rant, and oxygen waste)

And the opposite has been positively proven likewise. What's that old saying about trying the same failures expecting different results?

My facts in blue.

 

[Cerberus]

Phylodog and Jamil win the most logical posting awards on this particular thread. There were some that were close as well. But the whole rehab thing is in just plain dumb. Folks should be free to abuse themselves in any manner that they wish, they should also be free to completely pay any and all consequences.

 

[D-Ric902]

My opinions in blue.

fixed it for you
legalize your favorite and go get high