Deputy attempts to justify seizing LTC handguns during traffic stop

[88GT]

Not arguing, but
The way I look at is this, if they ask for it I will simply state "I would rather not as it is safe where it is, but if you insist I will comply." Why get testy over something that is a simple phone call later to the supervisor if you so choose. Now if the LEO is getting testy about it, then by all means have them radio for a supervisor and handle it right where you are at.

As you stated, when aren't you going somewhere or in a hurry... wouldn't calling the supervisor in your case take MORE time than complying and handling it in a friendly manner and going on about your way.

There is a time and place to "teach" a lesson/law and then there is NOT the time or place. It is a pick a choose type deal. Do you honestly want to get into a legality argument on every questionable thing that occurs. It's an inconvenience to be stopped anyhow, even if you deserved to be stopped, but in most cases there is not a reason to inconvenience yourself any more than necessary.

The LEO's also have to pick and choose their battles in most instances also... Yes, there are the HARD Rookies that are there to prove a point to the world and make a name for themselves. You need to look at it from both sides sometimes and it makes situations easier to get through.

I know not everyone feels the same, nor do I expect them to. I will be courteous unless the time arises to not be.

If you want to argue that you prioritize your convenience over your rights in certain circumstances, I will grant you that statement. But it is this mindset makes the violations possible in the first place. Complacency and apathy are tools of tyranny.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

If you want to argue that you prioritize your convenience over your rights in certain circumstances, I will grant you that statement. But it is this mindset makes the violations possible in the first place. Complacency and apathy are tools of tyranny.

AMEN!

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

If you want to argue that you prioritize your convenience over your rights in certain circumstances, I will grant you that statement. But it is this mindset makes the violations possible in the first place. Complacency and apathy are tools of tyranny.

Right on. I tried to rep that one but I have to share with others first.

From the gist of the thread on officer.com, complacency and apathy has made disarming legal carriers on traffic stops acceptable.

 

[Jarhead1775]

I learned this philosophy from an crusty old Gunny..."Never mistake my kindness for weakness, it will bite you in the a** every time"

I am always nice, until time not to be nice.

That does not mean that I am being complacent by any means, as I rarely ever let my guard down.... even at home. That just means that I am avoiding conflict until it cannot be avoided. I'm not laying down, and I never will. I am 100% prepared with other means of self defense at all times.

Something said earlier also about coonfingering the firearm, the unloading and returning of loose rounds. Well first off.. I will never hand a loaded weapon to anyone. So, that being the said. The LEO would receive an empty firearm...as to not endanger my family, myself. bystanders or the LEO. Whether the LEO dislikes that or not is up to them, but that is the way it is.

I learned something quite valuable while overseas.. a little off topic, but I feel it is appropriate.

You never know who the enemy may be at any given time, you also never know who is going to be friendly either. You must take every situation as a new encounter and approach calmly with caution in your actions. Be ready to act in defense, but also be ready to shake a hand if extended. If you go through life on the offensive for every situation, 9 times out of 10 you will receive a defensive action in return and its a standoff until you both determine the situation or.....well the rest can be figured out on your own.

Not everyone is the enemy as it may seem these days. Not everyone is your friend either.

Now I know that theory is not shared by everyone, as some would like to light up anyone and everyone.

Things are not as clear cut as it used to be. We do not line up shoulder to shoulder and fire lead at one another, nor do we take the 10 paces at the strike of noon.... Those days you knew who was shooting at you and you knew your target was. A lot has changed and people are different. Some say weaker, some say smarter... who knows

I prefer to observe from a distance. You can tell a lot about someone if they go about their business without interruption.... their intentions, body language and typically state of mind.

With that said.. I also like to engage at a distance and for good reason. That is why the military is trained to shoot at minimum of 300 meters for most branches.... 500 meters in my neck of the woods, but distance is key. The further you can hold back an enemy the better.

Yes, we also trained to shoot as close as 3 meters with rifles. You never know what you will get thrown into or what will arise.

There is not an answer for absolutely every situation at that given moment. Most answers are quick and precise and others require thought and consideration.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

I learned this philosophy from an crusty old Gunny..."Never mistake my kindness for weakness, it will bite you in the a** every time"

I am always nice, until time not to be nice.

That does not mean that I am being complacent by any means, as I rarely ever let my guard down.... even at home. That just means that I am avoiding conflict until it cannot be avoided. I'm not laying down, and I never will. I am 100% prepared with other means of self defense at all times.

Something said earlier also about coonfingering the firearm, the unloading and returning of loose rounds. Well first off.. I will never hand a loaded weapon to anyone. So, that being the said. The LEO would receive an empty firearm...as to not endanger my family, myself. bystanders or the LEO. Whether the LEO dislikes that or not is up to them, but that is the way it is.

I learned something quite valuable while overseas.. a little off topic, but I feel it is appropriate.

You never know who the enemy may be at any given time, you also never know who is going to be friendly either. You must take every situation as a new encounter and approach calmly with caution in your actions. Be ready to act in defense, but also be ready to shake a hand if extended. If you go through life on the offensive for every situation, 9 times out of 10 you will receive a defensive action in return and its a standoff until you both determine the situation or.....well the rest can be figured out on your own.

Not everyone is the enemy as it may seem these days. Not everyone is your friend either.

Now I know that theory is not shared by everyone, as some would like to light up anyone and everyone.

Things are not as clear cut as it used to be. We do not line up shoulder to shoulder and fire lead at one another, nor do we take the 10 paces at the strike of noon.... Those days you knew who was shooting at you and you knew your target was. A lot has changed and people are different. Some say weaker, some say smarter... who knows

I prefer to observe from a distance. You can tell a lot about someone if they go about their business without interruption.... their intentions, body language and typically state of mind.

With that said.. I also like to engage at a distance and for good reason. That is why the military is trained to shoot at minimum of 300 meters for most branches.... 500 meters in my neck of the woods, but distance is key. The further you can hold back an enemy the better.

Yes, we also trained to shoot as close as 3 meters with rifles. You never know what you will get thrown into or what will arise.

There is not an answer for absolutely every situation at that given moment. Most answers are quick and precise and others require thought and consideration.

Do you think the cop would let you unload? That's seems like a good way to get a service revolver pointed at your head.

 

[Jarhead1775]

Wow!!! Common sense comes in here.......That is where you inform the LEO of your intentions.....dont just whip it out and go to town handling it to unload it. That will not end in your favor......ever

Sorry, I figured that the common sense factor was involved in this discussion. I understand that not everyone uses it these days and it is a dying quality. I know I am new on here, but come on... even Noob's can have common sense.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Wow!!! Common sense comes in here.......That is where you inform the LEO of your intentions.....dont just whip it out and go to town handling it to unload it. That will not end in your favor......ever

Sorry, I figured that the common sense factor was involved in this discussion. I understand that not everyone uses it these days and it is a dying quality. I know I am new on here, but come on... even Noob's can have common sense.

And yet you assume the leo attempting to unlawfully disarm you has any? I've tried and you won't be "allowed" to, trust me.

 

[Jarhead1775]

I guess the old saying is correct about assuming.....Here hold my beer and I'll go get my stick so we can beat the horse at the same time.

 

[Jack Burton]

First, let me say that I would not disclose the fact that I was carrying upfront to an officer in a typical traffic stop, but I would not lie about it either.

I wish more people would come to a simple understanding that they are under no obligation to answer any question that a LEO puts to them. Period.

If a LEO ask if there are firearms and weapons in the car you don't have to lie to him. Just either say nothing or say "there is nothing illegal in the car."

If he asks you again, say nothing again or say that you refuse to answer any questions without your attorney present. If you want to yank his chain then say it really loudly, and follow it up with "was that clear enough for your dashboard camera recording to pick up? If not, I can state it louder."

 

[rnmcguire]

I wish more people would come to a simple understanding that they are under no obligation to answer any question that a LEO puts to them. Period.

If a LEO ask if there are firearms and weapons in the car you don't have to lie to him. Just either say nothing or say "there is nothing illegal in the car."

If he asks you again, say nothing again or say that you refuse to answer any questions without your attorney present. If you want to yank his chain then say it really loudly, and follow it up with "was that clear enough for your dashboard camera recording to pick up? If not, I can state it louder."

AMEN!!

 

[ecross0351]

Has anyone one tried to hand the LEO random stuff from your car like a rolled up magazine/ newspaper, or a hot cup of coffee stating its a weapon of opportunity and you're just looking out for the LEOs safety

 

[Bill of Rights]

Has anyone one tried to hand the LEO random stuff from your car like a rolled up magazine/ newspaper, or a hot cup of coffee stating its a weapon of opportunity and you're just looking out for the LEOs safety

I've read some crazy things on here, but this one is just.... wow...


Hand a LEO my COFFEE?? If he's willing to unload my gun, what do you think he's going to do to my coffee cup?!

FTR, I will not inform unless asked to exit the vehicle and it seems apparent I'm about to be searched. "Officer, in my wallet is my LTCH, and so that you're not surprised by it being there, my pistol is on my belt, in its holster."

If asked a question and I choose to answer it, the answer will be truthful. If I choose not to answer it, the response will be a blank stare (sort of a "did you really just ask me that? Seriously?" kind of thing)

If I'm issued a citation for speeding and I was speeding, I deserve it. I'd prefer not to be cited and have to go through the Defensive Driving rigamarole, but to prevent that, *I* need to slow down.

The cop is doing his job, running traffic. I don't fault that and thank them for so doing. They're not doing their job by violating peoples' rights under the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments, and yes, if necessary, as stated upthread, I've a few attorneys' phone numbers in my cell phone so they can do their jobs, too.

So far, like my pistol, I've not had to use any of these plans. Also like my pistol, I hope I never have to.



Blessings,
Bill

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Has anyone one tried to hand the LEO random stuff from your car like a rolled up magazine/ newspaper, or a hot cup of coffee stating its a weapon of opportunity and you're just looking out for the LEOs safety

I understood the humor. Good one, too.

 

[ecross0351]

I've read some crazy things on here, but this one is just.... wow...


Hand a LEO my COFFEE?? If he's willing to unload my gun, what do you think he's going to do to my coffee cup?!

FTR, I will not inform unless asked to exit the vehicle and it seems apparent I'm about to be searched. "Officer, in my wallet is my LTCH, and so that you're not surprised by it being there, my pistol is on my belt, in its holster."

If asked a question and I choose to answer it, the answer will be truthful. If I choose not to answer it, the response will be a blank stare (sort of a "did you really just ask me that? Seriously?" kind of thing)

If I'm issued a citation for speeding and I was speeding, I deserve it. I'd prefer not to be cited and have to go through the Defensive Driving rigamarole, but to prevent that, *I* need to slow down.

The cop is doing his job, running traffic. I don't fault that and thank them for so doing. They're not doing their job by violating peoples' rights under the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments, and yes, if necessary, as stated upthread, I've a few attorneys' phone numbers in my cell phone so they can do their jobs, too.

So far, like my pistol, I've not had to use any of these plans. Also like my pistol, I hope I never have to.



Blessings,
Bill

Did you see that? Nope you just missed it, flew right over your head...

 

[ApacheTactical]

good post and good convo, thanks for the interesting read.

 

[Movealongmovealong]

Having been an IPD officer for 10 years ( im not anymore ) you are best to inform them you have a gun and a gun permit. Most likely they will ask for your gun and return it moments later with the mag unloaded and tell you to load when they are gone.
Do you really want to keep your mouth shut and some how surprise the officer by him seeing your concealed weapon? do you enjoy staring down the barrell of a loaded gun? What if the officers training failed and he accidently fired a round in the moment?
yea go ahead and excersize your rights to carry a gun and keep it a secret during a routine traffic stop. See how long it stays routine.
Some people amaze me with stupidity.

Hate to say it, but I agree with you wholeheartedly. Many people confuse the written word of human laws with how the law and law enforcement work in reality. They are NOT the same.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Hate to say it, but I agree with you wholeheartedly. Many people confuse the written word of human laws with how the law and law enforcement work in reality. They are NOT the same.

It does not matter what Law Enforcement thinks the law is in their opinion, what matters is what the law says. And if they are recorded violating that law it will be costly.

 

[Roadie]

Hate to say it, but I agree with you wholeheartedly. Many people confuse the written word of human laws with how the law and law enforcement work in reality. They are NOT the same.

So the LEOs that post here, and have either:

1. Stated that they do not handle MWAG in a confrontational manner without other just cause
2. Do not freak out merely over the sight of a gun
3. Have had their thoughts about how to handle a MWAG call changed by reading and discussing the issue with other INGOers

..and so on.. don't understand how the law works?

 

[GunnerDan]

I personally know someone who is a Kentucky CCW holder and was pulled over for speeding and when the officer asked for his drivers license the mere site of his CCW license escalated the stop from a speeding ticket to being pulled from the vehicle at gun point, handcuffed and placed FACE DOWN on the ground while the "officer" conducted an illegal search looking for a weapon that wasnt even in the vehicle. Lets just say that after that little fiasco the "officer" in question was severely reprimanded. That my friends is the reason I carry a Kel Tec P3AT in a DeSantis pocket holster and will NEVER inform, even if directly asked. They only time I will inform is if I am being removed from the vehicle for some crazy reason.

Gunner

 

[Jack Burton]

I personally know someone who is a Kentucky CCW holder and was pulled over for speeding and when the officer asked for his drivers license the mere site of his CCW license escalated the stop from a speeding ticket to being pulled from the vehicle at gun point, handcuffed and placed FACE DOWN on the ground while the "officer" conducted an illegal search looking for a weapon that wasnt even in the vehicle. Lets just say that after that little fiasco the "officer" in question was severely reprimanded. That my friends is the reason I carry a Kel Tec P3AT in a DeSantis pocket holster and will NEVER inform, even if directly asked. They only time I will inform is if I am being removed from the vehicle for some crazy reason.

Gunner

There are some few cops who never quite understand that actions have consequences, and often the consequences are harsh indeed.