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[Timjoebillybob]

I would agree with you that gun crime is worse in Gary than Gilbert, but couldn't that be said about just about anywhere in the US?

Which is why I asked what kind of areas you worked in in both states. Was just using those two as examples.

It only takes me saying, "Oh surely he has a LTCH or he wouldn't be carrying", and not investigate it. I'm sure that 99 times out of 100 I would be good to go with that, but what about time #100???? What happens if I get hurt or killed because I made that assumption, someone else gets hurt or killed, or worse.........your wife or children gets hurt or killed???

But you make that sort of decision on a daily basis I would have to assume. Or do you stop every person driving to make sure they are not impaired/driving without a license? Or every person that doesn't fit the stereo typical look of the neighborhood your patroling? I'm not saying your not justified checking on a ltch if you have a reasonable suspicion regarding the individual other than just the fact he has a firearm. But just because he has a gun I don't think is anymore suspicious than a person driving a car or walking down the street window shopping. Yes if you see someone weaving while driving stop them, if you see someone with or without a gun repeatedly walking past a store window peering inside same.


Not saying you specificly, but some on here would be the first in line to sue me for not checking someone that eventually hurt or killed their family member or loved one and would also be the first in line to sue me for checking them because I saw the gun, either OC or CC. It's that whole damned if you do damned if you don't thing. I don't know about all of you, but I would much rather go to my grave and stand before God knowing I did the best I could weather you think I did or not.

Your pretty safe there SCOTUS has ruled that police are not liable for failing to protect a individual. They only have to protect the general public.

 

[Denny347]

The first thing we should all do, either LE or not, is never ASSUME we will know what the appeals courts will do...........they will always surprise you.

That's no joke. Sometimes I think they are half asleep when they render their opinions. You never know what you are going to get.

 

[Ashkelon]

If you carry yourself with dignity and give LE mutual respect there will be no issues. Just show him your ID and ask what can you do to help. You will be amazed at how LEOs respond. They understand they are in the weeds and want all the help they can get. Just my experience.

 

[public servant]

Your pretty safe there SCOTUS has ruled that police are not liable for failing to protect a individual. They only have to protect the general public.

But you know there are those that would have you "served to appear in federal court" by filing a civil lawsuit claiming deliberate indifference because they want the city/county to buy them a new house....or "put a few bucks" in their pocket. They want no proactive efforts made by the police because it may inconvenience them or infringe on them (in reality they hold their little insignificant place in the universe as much more important than it probably really is). But let something the police DIDN'T do have a negative impact on them and then watch them scream just as loudly. In reality....all your screaming does is draw undue attention to yourself and your cause. Speak softly...carry a big stick.

 

[1032JBT]

"Which is why I asked what kind of areas you worked in in both states. Was just using those two as examples."

Sorry, didn't explain myself very good in the statement. I was making a joke about the gun crime rates in Gary being probably worse than anywhere else in the US.


"But you make that sort of decision on a daily basis I would have to assume. Or do you stop every person driving to make sure they are not impaired/driving without a license? Or every person that doesn't fit the stereo typical look of the neighborhood your patroling? I'm not saying your not justified checking on a ltch if you have a reasonable suspicion regarding the individual other than just the fact he has a firearm. But just because he has a gun I don't think is anymore suspicious than a person driving a car or walking down the street window shopping. Yes if you see someone weaving while driving stop them, if you see someone with or without a gun repeatedly walking past a store window peering inside same"


Yes I have to make descions like enforce or not to enforce every day, but as it has already been said by another poster, comparing possession of a handgun to driving a car are two totally different animals. Yes they both require a license to do legally, but they are a different beast.....period. As far as checking someone just because of the gun......depends on the TOTALITY OF CIRCUMSTANCE of how I came to know about the gun. Each incident is different, as in no two are the same. I don't know what kind of work you do, but I'm sure if you think about you probably have things that are simular that you handle two different ways. Sorry if you don't agree with me or any of the cops that have posted, that's just the way it is and the way it will be.

Your pretty safe there SCOTUS has ruled that police are not liable for failing to protect a individual. They only have to protect the general public.

When I made that statement I was not referring to the courts, I was talking about being a man of Dignity and Honor and doing what I know in my heart is the right thing.

 

[BloodEclipse]

Excuse me if this has already been asked.( I haven't made it through all 17 pages yet) But with all the LEOs we have on this forum I am curious how many people have been arrested for OC without a license? I'm not talking about concealed carry that was exposed accidently, I'm talking about true OC.

 

[bigg cheese]

I asked it many pages ago, but never got an answer . Thanks for bringing it up again.

 

[1032JBT]

Excuse me if this has already been asked.( I haven't made it through all 17 pages yet) But with all the LEOs we have on this forum I am curious how many people have been arrested for OC without a license? I'm not talking about concealed carry that was exposed accidently, I'm talking about true OC.

I have never arrested anyone for OC with no license as I have only seen one or two people OC in Indiana. Now CC, that's a different story.

 

[BloodEclipse]

I have never arrested anyone for OC with no license as I have only seen one or two people OC in Indiana. Now CC, that's a different story.

I just think that will be the case. A bad guy or someone not licensed is going to conceal his firearm. So the need to check someone OCing befuddles me. Might as well pat everyone down because you are more likely to find an illegal handgun that is concealed, but then that would be violating someones rights where as somehow requesting a License from someone lawfully OCing is not?

 

[Lawguns]

I have arrested people for OC in Indiana. The guy was walking down an alley with a gun in his hand. As it turned out he had just shot out his ex's windows. The gun had the serial numbers filed off and he was a convicted felon.

As for those of you that carry openly. That is great, but let me ask you this.
Why do you carry a gun?
Next let me ask you this, If you carry a gun for protection don't you think you would be able to use it more effectively if the person you are trying to protect your self from did not know you had a gun?
I support the right to carry. I feel that everyone who can and understands guns should have a license to carry and carry. However, I find that most people that I talk to that OC say they do it because they can. I find this a very silly reason. The point of carrying a gun in the state of Indiana is for Personal Protection. If your attacker knows you have a gun then the attacker will take the steps to neutralize your gun first. Now I know that some will say, if they know I have a gun they would go else where. That may be true, but I would rather that attacker tried to attack me or rob me and that I possessed the tools to stop him then he move on to a softer target and rob or rape the old couple down the road.

 

[ATM]

Again, +1 on the civil nature of this thread.

I have always been of the opinion that checking for LTCH based solely on OCing is tantamount to checking for DL based solely on driving.

The fact that answering, "Yes, I have a LTCH" (or even showing it) is such a minor inconvenience does not negate the debated point.

Good discussion.

 

[1032JBT]

I just think that will be the case. A bad guy or someone not licensed is going to conceal his firearm. So the need to check someone OCing befuddles me. Might as well pat everyone down because you are more likely to find an illegal handgun that is concealed, but then that would be violating someones rights where as somehow requesting a License from someone lawfully OCing is not?

I only said I hadn't arrested anyone that was OC, not that I hadn't checked those couple that I have seen. Think about this: You only have to watch the news for a week or two in order to hear about the next active shooter. Do you really think those people care about CC since THEY know what they are about to do.

I do not know you or what yur mental state is or what is going on in your head. Maybe that guy in the grocery store or park that is OC is waiting for just the right "target rich environment" before he draws that OC weapon and starts shooting people, maybe one of your family members or someone you know. Just because you have a LTCH does not mean you are law abiding (maybe just haven't been caught yet) or that something really bad didn't just happen to you and are now operating a few cylinders short of a V-8. I just don't know, and all I can do at that point is check. Maybe me checking on you while you are OC is enough to set you off maybe not. I would rather take the chance that it would and put myself in harms way than ignore it and hear the news later that you just shot someplace up and know, even if I was the only one to know, that maybe just maybe I could have prevented it.

I have had one incident in my career that I will not discuss any further on a public forum that I regret not using a higher level of force because of what happened later. If you really need further info PM me and I will try to explain, just not on an open forum.

I will say again that I like the healthy discussion, but we will never agree on this issue. It's starting to sound like the proverbial
on both sides. Lets all just sit back, relax and enjoy a together.

 

[1032JBT]

I have arrested people for OC in Indiana. The guy was walking down an alley with a gun in his hand. As it turned out he had just shot out his ex's windows. The gun had the serial numbers filed off and he was a convicted felon.

As for those of you that carry openly. That is great, but let me ask you this.
Why do you carry a gun?
Next let me ask you this, If you carry a gun for protection don't you think you would be able to use it more effectively if the person you are trying to protect your self from did not know you had a gun?
I support the right to carry. I feel that everyone who can and understands guns should have a license to carry and carry. However, I find that most people that I talk to that OC say they do it because they can. I find this a very silly reason. The point of carrying a gun in the state of Indiana is for Personal Protection. If your attacker knows you have a gun then the attacker will take the steps to neutralize your gun first. Now I know that some will say, if they know I have a gun they would go else where. That may be true, but I would rather that attacker tried to attack me or rob me and that I possessed the tools to stop him then he move on to a softer target and rob or rape the old couple down the road.

.........oh yeah, and this one:

 

[NateIU10]

I have arrested people for OC in Indiana. The guy was walking down an alley with a gun in his hand. As it turned out he had just shot out his ex's windows. The gun had the serial numbers filed off and he was a convicted felon.

As for those of you that carry openly. That is great, but let me ask you this.
Why do you carry a gun?
Next let me ask you this, If you carry a gun for protection don't you think you would be able to use it more effectively if the person you are trying to protect your self from did not know you had a gun?
I support the right to carry. I feel that everyone who can and understands guns should have a license to carry and carry. However, I find that most people that I talk to that OC say they do it because they can. I find this a very silly reason. The point of carrying a gun in the state of Indiana is for Personal Protection. If your attacker knows you have a gun then the attacker will take the steps to neutralize your gun first. Now I know that some will say, if they know I have a gun they would go else where. That may be true, but I would rather that attacker tried to attack me or rob me and that I possessed the tools to stop him then he move on to a softer target and rob or rape the old couple down the road.

Why were you in the area? Happenstance, or on a call of shots fired? Holding a firearm in your hand is NOT simply OCing either. When booked, was "OCing" a charge?

Let's not turn this thread into an OC is stupid thread, there are plenty of others, and this has stayed relatively on topic

Again, +1 on the civil nature of this thread.

I have always been of the opinion that checking for LTCH based solely on OCing is tantamount to checking for DL based solely on driving.

The fact that answering, "Yes, I have a LTCH" (or even showing it) is such a minor inconvenience does not negate the debated point.

Good discussion.

+1 on all counts!

 

[Lawguns]

Why were you in the area? Happenstance, or on a call of shots fired? Holding a firearm in your hand is NOT simply OCing either. When booked, was "OCing" a charge?

Let's not turn this thread into an OC is stupid thread, there are plenty of others, and this has stayed relatively on topic



+1 on all counts!

No we had not gotten a call yet the call came out after I had the guy stopped and he was charged with carrying with out a license among other things. As for weather or not carring in your hand is open carrry, yes it is.

I would like to point out I have never said not to OC nor do I think it is stuipd I do feel that people have to choose when and where to OC and they should expent to be stopped and asked for ID if they plan to do so.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I have arrested people for OC in Indiana. The guy was walking down an alley with a gun in his hand. As it turned out he had just shot out his ex's windows. The gun had the serial numbers filed off and he was a convicted felon.

I'm not sure about the other posters but imho a guy walking down a alley with a gun in his hand is reasonable cause for asking a question or two. And I would have no problem if you asked me about it in that situation.

Now I know that some will say, if they know I have a gun they would go else where. That may be true, but I would rather that attacker tried to attack me or rob me and that I possessed the tools to stop him then he move on to a softer target and rob or rape the old couple down the road.

I'm leaving that topic alone . Except to say you do have a good point with the last and one I will have to think about.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I have arrested people for OC in Indiana. The guy was walking down an alley with a gun in his hand. As it turned out he had just shot out his ex's windows. The gun had the serial numbers filed off and he was a convicted felon.

As for those of you that carry openly. That is great, but let me ask you this.
Why do you carry a gun?
Next let me ask you this, If you carry a gun for protection don't you think you would be able to use it more effectively if the person you are trying to protect your self from did not know you had a gun?
I support the right to carry. I feel that everyone who can and understands guns should have a license to carry and carry. However, I find that most people that I talk to that OC say they do it because they can. I find this a very silly reason. The point of carrying a gun in the state of Indiana is for Personal Protection. If your attacker knows you have a gun then the attacker will take the steps to neutralize your gun first. Now I know that some will say, if they know I have a gun they would go else where. That may be true, but I would rather that attacker tried to attack me or rob me and that I possessed the tools to stop him then he move on to a softer target and rob or rape the old couple down the road.

Why, then, do LEOs carry openly and go about in uniforms clearly identifying them as being armed?

Food for thought.

 

[NateIU10]

No we had not gotten a call yet the call came out after I had the guy stopped and he was charged with carrying with out a license among other things. As for weather or not carring in your hand is open carrry, yes it is.

I would like to point out I have never said not to OC nor do I think it is stuipd I do feel that people have to choose when and where to OC and they should expent to be stopped and asked for ID if they plan to do so.

If I choose to drive my car in accordance with the law, (Which happens to NOT be an enumerated right), should I expect the same treatment? No. So what make me exercising a right not able to be secure in my person?

This question was about peaceably OCing a firearm, and a duty to identify yourself. If a firearm is in the hand, you could most certainly use the reasonable person standard as to if a crime has been/may be committed.

If you come across someone OCing, in a holster, during a daily course of business, no infractions witnessed, do you believe it is his duty to prove he is legal when questioned?

 

[IUGradStudent]

Wow this thread has gotten ridiculously long. For anyone still reading...

I believe that there are states where you must show your LTCH upon demand by an officer. As far as I know, none of those laws has been ruled unconstitutional. Still waiting on some relevant case law, though, pertaining ONLY to the requirement to present the LTCH to an officer. Sounds like Joe Williams might be a test case pretty soon, if we can't find any case law on the net.

I'm guessing you're right that there's no case law on this. In the absence of case law, it seems to me that the interesting thing to think about is how you would argue that first case. What legal grounds could you claim? etc. and what would your chances be?

It also seems to me that there are two issues here: 1) Is an LEO justified in asking for your ID and LTCH (and possibly detaining you) simply because you are openly carrying a handgun? 2) If you are detained for peaceably and legally OCing, are you legally required to identify yourself or present your LTCH?

Again, I take it that there's no case law on this, so all we have are the statutes. And, IANAL, though I have slept at a Holiday Inn before.

Several people have brought forward 34-28-5-3.5 as a statute which requires you to show ID if detained (relevant to question #2). The context of that statute seems to be "ordinance and infraction" violations such as traffic tickets. I don't know if it applies generally or not.

On question #1 there seems to be agreement that for things like traffic violations the LEO won't detain you unless he actually sees the commission of the infraction. I haven't seen any discussion of how generally this principle applies -- it seems like that kind of general analysis is part of what we need. A) Under what circumstances can and LEO detain and question, and B) does OC meet those requirements. Answer those two questions and you'll answer question #1.

Agent 007 maintains that openly carrying a handgun is itself evidence that an infraction may be being committed, and hence the stop is justifiable. Others of us think this same logic would apply to any operation of a vehicle on public roadways -- it, too, would be prima facie evidence of an infraction. Since we know that LEOs won't (can't?) pull you over just for driving, you shouldn't be detained or questioned simply for OC.

That's my reading of where we're at. And, I'm a little afraid of how long this thread might get

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I only said I hadn't arrested anyone that was OC, not that I hadn't checked those couple that I have seen. Think about this: You only have to watch the news for a week or two in order to hear about the next active shooter. Do you really think those people care about CC since THEY know what they are about to do.

Most if not all of them that I have heard/read about either had them concealed until they got where they were going or went in with it in their hands. Do you know of any instances where the person was OC as in a holster at their waist etc. Not having it in their hands at the ready?

I do not know you or what yur mental state is or what is going on in your head. Maybe that guy in the grocery store or park that is OC is waiting for just the right "target rich environment" before he draws that OC weapon and starts shooting people, maybe one of your family members or someone you know. Just because you have a LTCH does not mean you are law abiding (maybe just haven't been caught yet) or that something really bad didn't just happen to you and are now operating a few cylinders short of a V-8. I just don't know, and all I can do at that point is check. Maybe me checking on you while you are OC is enough to set you off maybe not. I would rather take the chance that it would and put myself in harms way than ignore it and hear the news later that you just shot someplace up and know, even if I was the only one to know, that maybe just maybe I could have prevented it.

Wouldn't it be just as effective to simply walk up and engage the person in a polite conversation. At least to judge their mental stability anyway? Myself for instance, you would have a lot better chance of judging my mood by a polite conversation rather than just walking up and demanding my ltch. I'll talk to you pretty much all you want, start demanding things when I haven't done anything wrong, about all your going to get is "Am I being detained? Why am I being detained? I would like to speak to a atty."

I have had one incident in my career that I will not discuss any further on a public forum that I regret not using a higher level of force because of what happened later. If you really need further info PM me and I will try to explain, just not on an open forum.

Not needed but curious as it may give me some insight to the reason you feel the way you do.

I will say again that I like the healthy discussion, but we will never agree on this issue. It's starting to sound like the proverbial
on both sides. Lets all just sit back, relax and enjoy a together.

I agree that we will never agree. But if your ever up in Monticello let me know I'll buy the first