WI issues with p320

[grillak]

i'm just hoping to pick up some of those "self-actuating" sigs at a discount.

neither of my p320s, nor my best gal's have attacked us yet

 

[ditcherman]

i'm just hoping to pick up some of those "self-actuating" sigs at a discount.

neither of my p320s, nor my best gal's have attacked us yet

Look back a few pages deep in the classies, there were quite a few and didn’t look like they were moving well.
Maybe more than a few pages, maybe a month ago or so?

 

[grillak]

Look back a few pages deep in the classies, there were quite a few and didn’t look like they were moving well.
Maybe more than a few pages, maybe a month ago or so?

thanks for the tip

i've been out of the loop for a minute.

 

[Basher]

I recently picked up a P250 and actually like it a lot. It’s making me re-think my stance on the P320, but only so long as I get one with a manual safety. That being said, if I end up liking the P250 down the road a bit (after a few hundred rounds through it) as much as I do now, maybe I’ll just add another one of those to the safe?

I don’t have a fear at this point of any mechanical failure causing a discharge, as I think Sig addressed those issues. However, I’m unwilling to AIWB a handgun that’s essentially a SAO design that lacks any safeties. If I can get a manual safety FCU, I’d build one out. Time will tell. But I feel any departments adding the P320 should STRONGLY consider adopting MS models rather than non-MS.

 

[BE Mike]

I recently picked up a P250 and actually like it a lot. It’s making me re-think my stance on the P320, but only so long as I get one with a manual safety. That being said, if I end up liking the P250 down the road a bit (after a few hundred rounds through it) as much as I do now, maybe I’ll just add another one of those to the safe?

I don’t have a fear at this point of any mechanical failure causing a discharge, as I think Sig addressed those issues. However, I’m unwilling to AIWB a handgun that’s essentially a SAO design that lacks any safeties. If I can get a manual safety FCU, I’d build one out. Time will tell. But I feel any departments adding the P320 should STRONGLY consider adopting MS models rather than non-MS.

A manual safety doesn't belong on a law enforcement officer's Sig P320. The pistols are safe to carry without one. It takes a lot of in depth training for the typical officer to include disengaging a manual safety before discharging his/ her handgun. Most departments don't provide that much concentrated training, so the manual safety becomes just another obstacle to overcome when a high stress life or death scenario is encountered.

 

[Basher]

A manual safety doesn't belong on a law enforcement officer's Sig P320. The pistols are safe to carry without one. It takes a lot of in depth training for the typical officer to include disengaging a manual safety before discharging his/ her handgun. Most departments don't provide that much concentrated training, so the manual safety becomes just another obstacle to overcome when a high stress life or death scenario is encountered.

I STRONGLY disagree. LEOs are the people most often associated with the carry and use of a firearm. And to your point, most of them receive less training than they need/deserve, which is why I think they need safeties on theirs. In addition, most use WMLs now, often from Safariland, and they’re now known to have a weak point which allows trigger access while holstered. Without a trigger safety, this present a problem IMO.

Safety use can be taught quickly and practiced in-depth at home without the need for a range. And the idea that it’s “too difficult” to teach someone to operate one lever under stress is preposterous! Do you know how much crap I have to do in a helicopter to get it on the ground safely if the engine fails? All of which I have to be able to do to a set standard in order to receive a pilot certificate (with much higher standards for a commercial pilot certificate)? If I and dozens of thousands of other commercial pilots can safely operate a helicopter well enough to get it on the ground like that (or any other phase of flight, helicopters aren’t simple machines to operate well), then you better believe a single safety lever can be operated just fine. Plenty of departments are allowing the use or adoption of the Staccato these days, which is 110% a direct correlation to the P320 with a safety. What a bunch of baloney…

 

[BE Mike]

I STRONGLY disagree. LEOs are the people most often associated with the carry and use of a firearm. And to your point, most of them receive less training than they need/deserve, which is why I think they need safeties on theirs. In addition, most use WMLs now, often from Safariland, and they’re now known to have a weak point which allows trigger access while holstered. Without a trigger safety, this present a problem IMO.

Safety use can be taught quickly and practiced in-depth at home without the need for a range. And the idea that it’s “too difficult” to teach someone to operate one lever under stress is preposterous! Do you know how much crap I have to do in a helicopter to get it on the ground safely if the engine fails? All of which I have to be able to do to a set standard in order to receive a pilot certificate (with much higher standards for a commercial pilot certificate)? If I and dozens of thousands of other commercial pilots can safely operate a helicopter well enough to get it on the ground like that (or any other phase of flight, helicopters aren’t simple machines to operate well), then you better believe a single safety lever can be operated just fine. Plenty of departments are allowing the use or adoption of the Staccato these days, which is 110% a direct correlation to the P320 with a safety. What a bunch of baloney…

Actually I am intimately familiar with what it takes to fly a helicopter. You are comparing apples to oranges. I also am intimately familiar with police firearms training. Police carried revolvers for decades without a mechanical safety. You are entitled to your opinion, baseless as it is.

 

[Route 45]

I STRONGLY disagree. LEOs are the people most often associated with the carry and use of a firearm. And to your point, most of them receive less training than they need/deserve, which is why I think they need safeties on theirs. In addition, most use WMLs now, often from Safariland, and they’re now known to have a weak point which allows trigger access while holstered. Without a trigger safety, this present a problem IMO.

Safety use can be taught quickly and practiced in-depth at home without the need for a range. And the idea that it’s “too difficult” to teach someone to operate one lever under stress is preposterous! Do you know how much crap I have to do in a helicopter to get it on the ground safely if the engine fails? All of which I have to be able to do to a set standard in order to receive a pilot certificate (with much higher standards for a commercial pilot certificate)? If I and dozens of thousands of other commercial pilots can safely operate a helicopter well enough to get it on the ground like that (or any other phase of flight, helicopters aren’t simple machines to operate well), then you better believe a single safety lever can be operated just fine. Plenty of departments are allowing the use or adoption of the Staccato these days, which is 110% a direct correlation to the P320 with a safety. What a bunch of baloney…

You are obviously not familiar with the (lack of) firearms training in most police agencies. A helicopter pilot is dedicated and loves what he is doing, or he wouldn't be doing it. The helicopter is the whole enchilada. The pistol is not the point of police work.

There are officers, in fact most of them, who only fire their weapons at annual or semi-annual training. They are sure as hell not practicing their draws and safety lever sweeps at home. I'd say that the vast majority of officers are not "gun guys/gals" at all, and probably a large number of them are actually annoyed that they have to go to the range a couple times a year.

 

[Creedmoor]

With the USMC being substantially smaller and utilizing the M18 like the USAF and US Navy complete integration will happen probably faster than Big Army.

I know my old Air Guard Unit has had the M18 for over a year now. And Wright Pat AFB had there’s about a year and a half ago maybe sooner.

Now on tie AD/ND topic I’d like to know on the armorer side how often that issue that Sig reported to the steel challenge shooter happens.

That means you know little about The USMC my friend, It will be every bit of the next 10 years for those Sigs to hit the Rank and File.
They will not be put in place until the 92's wear out.

 

[Creedmoor]

Police carried revolvers for decades without a mechanical safety. You are entitled to your opinion, baseless as it is.

Safetys aren't always mechanical. The revolver for the most part had a few safetys.

 

[BE Mike]

Safetys aren't always mechanical. The revolver for the most part had a few safetys.

Of course you are correct. I meant to say that revolvers didn't have a manual safety. Instead I typed mechanical. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Basher]

You are obviously not familiar with the (lack of) firearms training in most police agencies. A helicopter pilot is dedicated and loves what he is doing, or he wouldn't be doing it. The helicopter is the whole enchilada. The pistol is not the point of police work.

There are officers, in fact most of them, who only fire their weapons at annual or semi-annual training. They are sure as hell not practicing their draws and safety lever sweeps at home. I'd say that the vast majority of officers are not "gun guys/gals" at all, and probably a large number of them are actually annoyed that they have to go to the range a couple times a year.

I understand that.

At the same time, I also believe that when tasked with employing a tool capable of taking human life, you should be required to demonstrate proficiency with that tool. Many officers are barely capable of doing so.

What I’m saying is, safeties would save both officers, civilians, AND society as a whole, both in lives lost and tax dollars. I don’t care if you’re “not a gun guy/gal.” If you carry a firearm on the job, safely employing a tool that can maim/kill should require higher standards of performance and safety. Can’t do that? Then no gun/find another job.

For what it’s worth, the chief pilot where I learned to fly was a miserable bitch who, by all accounts, disliked flying and hated life. But she needed a job and was good at berating those who were tasked with teaching others (ie, she was a “good” motivator). Not everyone who flies loves it, but that doesn’t mean they’re bad at it. They just realize the costs of sucking at it are high. Same with a firearm, but I guess some people don’t care about that these days?

Also, you know how I got better at flying? By seeking out mote training. Nobody paid me to learn how to fly, and nobody’s paid for my training. I had to. I understood the consequences of sucking in aviation are death. So I’ve invested in myself and my career. Personally, I feel cops should be doing the same. The chances of you using a firearm are relatively low compared to the other parts of the job, yes. All the more reason to invest in some additional training on the side, even if it’s out of their own pocket. Will many cops do this? Nope. I understand that, but that fact is why they fail quals or barely manage to pass them. That fact is why officers will expend multiple mags and never hit their target. That fact is why officers sometimes die during shootouts. My flight training was to a fairly low standard at the private level. I had to choose to continue my education. They must do the same.

 

[Basher]

Actually I am intimately familiar with what it takes to fly a helicopter. You are comparing apples to oranges. I also am intimately familiar with police firearms training. Police carried revolvers for decades without a mechanical safety. You are entitled to your opinion, baseless as it is.

The tool may be apples to oranges. The ability to perform a simple task to a standard is not. My point was that complex tasks can be performed to a high standard under stress/duress, and thus simple tasks can be done even more so.

I’m aware police used revolvers. I’m aware they used/use Glocks. Neither of these are SAO with short, light trigger pulls, therefore neither should require a manual safety. A P320 is essentially SAO, and they were designed to have a short, light trigger pull. They’ve also proven themselves as problematic from an ND standpoint. Without a trigger safety to help (not eliminate, because even Glocks have NDs in the hands of the careless or incompetent) prevent unintended discharges, I feel they’re unfit for duty use.

I’m also aware that monkeys can outperform many people at simple, mindless tasks. If someone cannot be taught to use a simple safety, they have no business carrying a firearm anymore than you’d want a monkey to have one.

Baseless or not, I stand by my statement. If you can’t learn the simplest of motor skills, maybe being a cop isn’t for you. Hard stop.

 

[Creedmoor]

I recently picked up a P250 and actually like it a lot. It’s making me re-think my stance on the P320, but only so long as I get one with a manual safety. That being said, if I end up liking the P250 down the road a bit (after a few hundred rounds through it) as much as I do now, maybe I’ll just add another one of those to the safe?

I don’t have a fear at this point of any mechanical failure causing a discharge, as I think Sig addressed those issues. However, I’m unwilling to AIWB a handgun that’s essentially a SAO design that lacks any safeties. If I can get a manual safety FCU, I’d build one out. Time will tell. But I feel any departments adding the P320 should STRONGLY consider adopting MS models rather than non-MS.

The P250 is an interesting pistol, I bought one and gave it to my boys mother. Its a compact 9mm, it works for her still.
Maybe a year later I was asking a dealer after they went out of production what was still in the pipeline to buy. 5 min later I bought another compact 9mm for a hundred less than the first.
He said Sig dropped the wholesale price and he passed it on.
As much as I would like to 'like' this pistol, it just doesn't work for me. It sits lonely in a vault just waiting for one of the kids to take there mother shooting, thats when I gets used.
Hope it works for you.

 

[ECS686]

That means you know little about The USMC my friend, It will be every bit of the next 10 years for those Sigs to hit the Rank and File.
They will not be put in place until the 92's wear out.

As far as a rock the Corps and full changeover not sure. However I know folks recently separated from the USMC and also a couple USMC Reserve members. Both have stated have stated the the Sig. M18 have been issued for quite a bit. Sure there will be M9’s around for a while but for a transition it seems those reporting have gotten the upgrade quite a bit quicker than one would think.

 

[Creedmoor]

front line Grunt also, never did see or shoot a M18 servic pistol. As far as a rock the Corps and full changeover not sure. However I know folks recently separated from the USMC and also a couple USMC Reserve members. Both have stated have stated the the Sig. M18 have been issued for quite a bit. Sure there will be M9’s around for a while but for a transition it seems those reporting have gotten the upgrade quite a bit quicker than one would think.

Well myself, I'm a bit more personal with The, USMC.
I just talked to my older son whos at Camp Lejeune as I type this. hes still a front line Grunt.
His younger brother finished his enlistment about 15 months ago, he never saw or shot a M18 service pistol.
He saw more Sigs in Kuwait the last year while going through the Army's Armory's while checking out weapons for work.

When working, his issue went from a 92A2? I believe, to a Glock 19 and his service rifle was a A4 M16 to a M27 rifle.

Nothing happens fast in the MC, it just doesn't.

 

[ECS686]

Well myself, I'm a bit more personal with The, USMC.
I just talked to my older son whos at Camp Lejeune as I type this. hes still a front line Grunt.
His younger brother finished his enlistment about 15 months ago, he never saw or shot a M18 service pistol.
He saw more Sigs in Kuwait the last year while going through the Army's Armory's while checking out weapons for work.

When working, his issue went from a 92A2? I believe, to a Glock 19 and his service rifle was a A4 M16 to a M27 rifle.

Nothing happens fast in the MC, it just doesn't.

I left active duty at a Nuke base in 1993 I used an M16 (the USAF never used the 16a1 in fact my first base in 1986 I had a thin barrel with a 3 prong flash hider)

I drove from Montana to here and joined the Indiana ANG and their Security Forces had been issued FN M16a2’s for like a year

So in a way it doesn’t surprise me just went off some pretty valid references not all bases are treated the same though.

 

[Creedmoor]

I left active duty at a Nuke base in 1993 I used an M16 (the USAF never used the 16a1 in fact my first base in 1986 I had a thin barrel with a 3 prong flash hider)

I drove from Montana to here and joined the Indiana ANG and their Security Forces had been issued FN M16a2’s for like a year

So in a way it doesn’t surprise me just went off some pretty valid references not all bases are treated the same though.

Yep, thank you!