Why I carry: One gun in my face was enough.

[bigus_D]

... Bigus_D, if you had been carrying your pistol on that fateful day, which method to you think would have served you better, in a tactical sense? ...

Well. I never OC. So, if I were carrying it would have been either my Glock 19 IWB (MTAC), or my P3AT in my front pocket in a pocket holster. Clearly the MTAC allows for a faster draw. Of course, it would not have made a lick of difference if I decided to fight before the first BG made it to my table. In that case, OC would have been fastest. I highly doubt that my OC would have been visible from outside, though this particular establishment has a lot of windows and my strong (carry) side was pointed toward their enterance point.

These guys were thugs, plain and simple. I highly doubt their situational awareness was high enough to identify me as carrying (at least until I stood up). So, in summary, I believe that CC would have provided the most options to me (in this exact situation) and OC would have been fastest once I decided to fight. If I were thrown back in time to this exact moment again, I would want my Glock OC'd for fastest draw (if not just sitting on the table next to my spaghetti), because if it happened again exactly like it did the first time I would have been fighting from the get go. Each situation is different, so CC offers me the ability to carry without others knowing and offers me the ability to observe the situation and make my own decision about course of action.

Every situation is different. Every person is different. People can make their own decision as to OC or CC or NC (not carry). I'm glad this is our right. Perhaps if I had additional training I would consider OC as a viable option for me. Right now, I don't want anybody to know (except all of ya'll ).

[/OCvsCC debate]

Now I do carry two different guns based on my dress, destination, etc. The Glock 19 is just too big for me to carry in formal attire. Any time I can get away with my shirt untucked, I'll carry the Glock. While it is highly unlikely I'll need more than the seven rounds the P3AT affords, I KNOW I'm WAY more accurate with the Glock and it holds 16 rounds. In the situation from the OP, I would have wanted the G19 (though I would gladly have taken the P3AT instead of nothing!) There were three bad guys (at least, maybe a driver also)... The first was close enough to shoot with the P3AT, but the second was far enough that I'd have been lucky to hit with that pocket pistol. I doubt I'd have had to fight the third guy to make it to the door, but who knows... if I had, my gun would have been running pretty close to empty by that time.

 

[Indecision]

Well written story man, I'm glad it worked out for ya though.

 

[Astrocreep]

Thanks for the story bigus_D. I'm also glad to hear it worked out well for you.

IANAL, so I'm guessing that all thugs involved in a violent felony are fair game... but if anyone orders me 'to the back room' during a robbery they're going to get shot. I know I might also get shot in such a scenario.
Being ordered to the floor by thugs with guns isn't something I'm going to do without a fight.

Realistically, you're taking a HUGE risk of death/injury if you choose to engage in a gunfight with armed robbers. However, I'd much rather risk losing my life fighting to protect myself/others than risk being shot in the back of the head face down 'in the back room'. Not all robbers want to leave witnesses at the crime scene.

 

[rambone]

I think I am going to switch to SC ... shotgun carry.

 

[Indy317]

I just wonder how this would have gone down if you would have been OC'ing, and one of the bad guys saw you. I know, I know....it "never" happens. Still....something to think about. Three on one isn't good odds in a gunfight.

If you are a victim of a robbery, and you have a gun on you, OC or concealed, it will get taken...period. If you are OCing, and the robber is serious (ie: No unloaded gun, just wanting to scare someone), then any sudden moves towards the gun would likely get you shot at...then who knows what would happen.

This reminds me of the guys who were doing the robberies downtown on the canal. They got an off-duty IPD officer. They were patting people down so carrying concealed did nothing. They found the gun, and took it. Guns are money, so if they are available and known by the robber...they are going to get taken.

How in the hell would the robber notice he was OC'ing? He was sitting at a booth or table, sitting down as the guy"s" walked in the door. Makes no sense, sounds like another bs OC hater!

So you have _never_ seen anyone OCing? I have seen plenty of people OCing while sitting down, standing up, etc.. It all depends on how you are carrying, where you carry your gun, the visual path the robber has had of the person carrying, etc..

 

[esrice]

bigus -- thanks for the post. It's always nice to see a well-written first hand account.

A few thoughts:

Get training. You've got the hardware, and now you carry the hardware-- its time for some software. Incidents like yours are dynamic and evolve quickly. Learning how to deal with these mentally will serve you well in the future. Look at Mindset Labs' or MCS' offerings-- they're comparatively inexpensive and only require a time investment of 1 day. A good ol' "Handgun 1" type class would benefit you as well, using your chosen carry weapon.

Also, keep in mind that if you had chosen to shoot the BG coming at you initially, that doesn't automatically mean you'd be in a gunfight with the other 2. Perhaps they would re-evaluate their positions and flee. 'Thugs' generally are in it for the quick cash, and don't want to stick around and risk death-- and I'm sure they'd have no problem leaving their bleeding buddy behind.

 

[Agent 007]

.

 

[Indy317]

I don't recall the OP saying that everyone in the restaurant was patted down or searched in any way. No, a concealed gun will not "get taken...period." You have no idea what will happen in a robbery. Each situation is different. I've seen the aftermath of plenty of street robberies. Most of the time, no one gets hurt. Sometimes the victim gets shot despite being cooperative. Sometimes the bad guy gets shot. Each incident has its own dynamics.

I was talking about if the robbers did find the gun, if they did do pat downs. OC or concealed, it is going to get taken. This is why I carry concealed, because as you say, robbers don't always do a pat down. If robber sees a gun, I would bet money they would take it...hence why I would never OC. Worse case scenario, which is being covered on another thread, is that fact that many people automatically assume that OCing=LEO...so instead of just planning to disarm and steal the gun as part of the robbery, one of the robber(s) just opens fires thinking the OCer is an LEO.

 

[bigus_D]

...
Get training. You've got the hardware, and now you carry the hardware-- its time for some software. Incidents like yours are dynamic and evolve quickly. Learning how to deal with these mentally will serve you well in the future. Look at Mindset Labs' or MCS' offerings-- they're comparatively inexpensive and only require a time investment of 1 day. A good ol' "Handgun 1" type class would benefit you as well, using your chosen carry weapon.

Also, keep in mind that if you had chosen to shoot the BG coming at you initially, that doesn't automatically mean you'd be in a gunfight with the other 2. Perhaps they would re-evaluate their positions and flee. 'Thugs' generally are in it for the quick cash, and don't want to stick around and risk death-- and I'm sure they'd have no problem leaving their bleeding buddy behind.

I've seen the posts about Mindset Labs... Is MCS a different school (I did a couple of searches but couldn't find it)? These look like really good classes and are probably exactly what I'm looking for. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a "Handgun 1" type class... I did attend an NRA Basic Pistol class... is that the type of class you are referring to? (I had originally signed up for the NRA Personal Protection in the Home class for the next day, but the instruction at the first class was so injected with religious and political banter that I decided my time would be better spent doing just about anything else.)

EDIT: Searching for MSC won't return the same results as searching for MCS. MODERN COMBATIVE SYSTEMS - Self Defense Training for Civilians, Military and Law Enforcement Agencies - Open Hand, Stick, Knife and Pistol

EDIT 2: Mindset Labs isn't listing any course schedule on their site, and the only upcoming MCS class is "vehicle tactics" and that isn't until March. Any other suggestions?

 

[bartonmd]

Thanks for posting your experience!

You were VERY lucky! In a situation like this (now almost entirely empty of customers except you, 3 BGs, getting everybody in the back room), most of the time, they aren't leaving witnesses... Statistically, all of you are pretty much already dead, once they get you in the back room. Time to act accordingly, before your options run out.

IMO, THE thing to do is tell the old lady (wife, gf, whatever) to hit the deck, and at the very least put a Failure Drill (2+1, El Presidente, etc.) into the guy walking toward you and grab some cover... Other 2 guys either run (preferred) or a gun fight ensues... Even if you, the wife, and the manager bite it during said gunfight, you (the "victims") aren't any worse off than you would have been had you not resisted (easily gotten executed in the back room), and you took at the very least one of them off the street on your way out.

It's a bit different when you're talking about a store FULL of people (that they don't have enough ammo to shoot all of you, and can't easily get you in the back room, and there's lots of innocent fodder to catch stray bullets), but if it's just you and the people who work there... chances are, you're all dead anyway from the word go.

ETA: There is a good reason to always sit facing the door, anywhere you eat/sit/hang out...

Mike

 

[esrice]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a "Handgun 1" type class...

I was referring to something like Gunsite's "Handgun 1", or Sheriff Ken's "Intro to Defensive Pistols", or Magpul Dynamics' "Handgun 1", or Tactical Response's "Handgun 1", etc. These are all basic classes (I consider most of the NRA 'basic' offerings as "sub-basic") that will teach you the fundementals of pistol shooting from a holster-- draw, presentation, sight alignment, trigger control, threat scan, and so on.

EDIT: Searching for MSC won't return the same results as searching for MCS.

Now THAT'S funny!

EDIT 2: Mindset Labs isn't listing any course schedule on their site, . . . . . Any other suggestions?

Keep checking here on INGO, or send INGO member Shay a PM (he's the owner/trainer).

 

[D.Kupp]

FYI yes, when there is a group of people committing a felony, they are all responsible for each other's actions especially in the event of a murder- they are all tried equally no matter who pulled the trigger.

You do not have to see a gun or weapon in the hands of the guy that is approaching you. It is reasonable to believe he has one. Even if he does not, he represents a threat of great bodily injury or death. The only option aside from drawing and shooting him would be to do as he wishes which happens to be what his armed accomplice also wishes. Therefore, he is the same threat to you and if it were me, I'd shoot him before he got to me.

It's a tough call, especially since you don't know who is where and how they are armed. If they came in quickly enough, there may be a gunman far enough away where I doubt I could hit him from where I'm standing and at the same time someone approaching me fast. I don't have to worry about the other 2 or 10 guys. I can defend myself from this one guy and I'm not obligated to hunt the others down. I'm free to fire on this guy and flee if I want. I would hope that this would cause the others to run in their own directions. The guy in back and possibly the guy behind the counter may not know what happened or be just as afraid as me. They don't know if there were two cops that shot their buddy or what. They would probably run if they could.

Point is, you'll have to react to whatever is right in front of you.

 

[henktermaat]

Super story- and great commentary by all. Makes one think.

 

[Shay]

Mindset Labs isn't listing any course schedule on their site, and the only upcoming MCS class is "vehicle tactics" and that isn't until March. Any other suggestions?

In the next few days I will be posting several classes for 2010 once I confirm with the facility I use to host the classes. I'll send you a PM when they are up.

 

[bigus_D]

In the next few days I will be posting several classes for 2010 once I confirm with the facility I use to host the classes. I'll send you a PM when they are up.

Thanks Shay. I will definitely be looking forward to that.

 

[bigus_D]

I just saw the post about the new site... looks good.

I'm expecting a new baby in Feb... so I'm reluctant to sign up for the first intro to Force on Force... as my schedule (life) settles down a bit, hopefully the March class will still have some openings.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Good story. That's why situational awareness is so key. When I walk into an unfamiliar place, I always look for possible outs, cover etc. Just incase something would happen. When facing more then person who is armed. It's probably best to do what they say, and wait until they leave. Unless you can take one out, and are able to get cover and concealment. Then again you take a risk of hitting someone else Or soemone getting hit if the bg fires back. It's one of those what would I do situations. There is no way to tell, and every situation is different.

 

[Neo46121]

Scary situation indeed! I'm glad the OP is alive and well for starters.

Keep the input coming guys, in soakin this up like a sponge.

 

[eliteimagery]

I think OC'ing would have been the best deterrent. I hope more people realize in situations like this are more common place than they used to be. Take notice.

 

[calcot7]

Glad you all made it out of that situation alive! Well written description of a frightening experience. I have to say that I actually felt fear while reading and placing myself in that situation. Now I don't think that I will ever feel safe while carrying just my P3at anymore. I would hate to have to worry about not having enough gun while trying to decide on which course of action to take in a situation like this.