Why does Ukraine matter?

[Ingomike]

Wonder how much the Bidens' have lost due to this

Not much beyond future corruption. Big guy already got his 10%. Don’t forget Pelosi, Kerry, and Romney are all involved in this too…

 

[Jaybird1980]

The question is how much money are we going to be sending them, then you can get an idea of how much will be kicked back to the others.

 

[idkfa]

“Who started it“ Who started the hostility between Russia and Ukraine… better go farther back than 2004 my friend.

Absolutely, it's been brewing for a long while. I'm just trying to excise specific prominent acts.

Far as the current Crimean situation the blame is solely on the USSR for giving it to Ukraine in the first place.

Of course, a pretext...

We all know why Putin wanted/took it back, it had nothing to do with the people being Russian and everything to do with global strategy.

... and a real reason.
Imo the big question is why he did it when he did. I mentioned elsewhere that Vladimir Handogy, then-acting Chief of Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Ukraine, revealed in 2019 that Ukraine was going to allow the construction of a Western military base in Crimea.
Is that true or was he lying? I don't know.
But Putin took Crimea then, and got to DNR/LNR only now.

Same with DNR/LNR, Russia had plenty of opportunities to liberate these areas from Ukrainian rule but elected not to, why?

This is why I've mistakenly thought that Putin wouldn't do anything this time around either.
Elsewhere I posted at least 3 articles in the Western media (there were many more) for each year starting with 2015 that said the exact same thing they did this January.
Russian troops at the Ukrainian border, blah-blah.

Cause it served no purpose till now.

And this is where I surmise there's a situation afoot similar to what happened in 2014 -- only this time it's all of Ukraine.
E.g., the Ukrainian petition to be admitted into the EU has just been approved, so I doubt it was started right after Russia attacked.

It feels like Poroshenko just wasn't cutting it for whichever mafia installed him, so he was very elegantly swapped for Zelensky (I mean, they made a whole TV series about a school teacher -- Zelensky starring -- becoming president and distributed it for free online).
Zelensky escalated the EU/NATO rhetoric and right before the attack mentioned he'd look into getting the nukes for Ukraine if the West were not to help.

I also wonder if the Russian military and financial infrastructure were not ready in 2014 for the full-scale invasion.
I mean, the Russian military has been the stuff of nightmares for the Russian (as in, ethnic Russian) recruits, especially if they got to serve with Chechens: incessant abuse and suicides ensued. So it took lots of determined preparation. And then of course I do not doubt that Trump played a YYYYUUUUUGE role (I mean US being a net oil exporter alone was probably enough).

 

[gvbcraig]

King's College is located in Cambridge, England. It was founded by King Henry VI in 1441. Purple is the color of royalty, thus, the purple gloved fist precedes the Communist fist by several centuries.

That was an awesome straw man misdirection, I'm sure it worked well to dissuade people from watching the video. However, it is Ukraine that continues to burn while we are unable to find a solution to this mess because we don't even begin to understand the underlying causes and keep doubling down on failed policies.

No one is advocating that the invasion was justified or that Ukraine needs to give up its sovereignty. However, we do need to understand what the Russian perspective is to have any hope of reaching a solution.

My only hope is that we can find a solution before the nukes come out, crazy right?

The video I posted is an American professor simply explaining what the Russian perspective is, and the failed American policies that, in his view, have contributed to the problem. If we can't even have that much without smearing people with the Communist label, then we might as well sit back and enjoy watching the world burn.

Yes, well aware of the King's College. But the purple fist does not proceed the communist fist. Please find an example of that, I am not aware of it existing prior to the 1920's.
King's College coat of arms does contain purple, but it does not contain the raised fist.
Listening to the Russian perspective of the last 20 years, but the history of this conflict goes back a 1,000 years, and most Ukrainians are aware of the Russian atrocities against Ukraine in the last 100 years, and they fear it very much. They know the freedoms they have experienced in the last 20 years will shattered and they will disappear, to be followed by tyranny and hardship.

 

[KG1]

Absolutely, it's been brewing for a long while. I'm just trying to excise specific prominent acts.


Of course, a pretext...


... and a real reason.
Imo the big question is why he did it when he did. I mentioned elsewhere that Vladimir Handogy, then-acting Chief of Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Ukraine, revealed in 2019 that Ukraine was going to allow the construction of a Western military base in Crimea.
Is that true or was he lying? I don't know.
But Putin took Crimea then, and got to DNR/LNR only now.


This is why I've mistakenly thought that Putin wouldn't do anything this time around either.
Elsewhere I posted at least 3 articles in the Western media (there were many more) for each year starting with 2015 that said the exact same thing they did this January.
Russian troops at the Ukrainian border, blah-blah.


And this is where I surmise there's a situation afoot similar to what happened in 2014 -- only this time it's all of Ukraine.
E.g., the Ukrainian petition to be admitted into the EU has just been approved, so I doubt it was started right after Russia attacked.

It feels like Poroshenko just wasn't cutting it for whichever mafia installed him, so he was very elegantly swapped for Zelensky (I mean, they made a whole TV series about a school teacher -- Zelensky starring -- becoming president and distributed it for free online).
Zelensky escalated the EU/NATO rhetoric and right before the attack mentioned he'd look into getting the nukes for Ukraine if the West were not to help.

I also wonder if the Russian military and financial infrastructure were not ready in 2014 for the full-scale invasion.
I mean, the Russian military has been the stuff of nightmares for the Russian (as in, ethnic Russian) recruits, especially if they got to serve with Chechens: incessant abuse and suicides ensued. So it took lots of determined preparation. And then of course I do not doubt that Trump played a YYYYUUUUUGE role (I mean US being a net oil exporter alone was probably enough).

You keep acting like Russian backed Yanukovych did'nt play a part in the dynamics of his own ousting as a puppet of Putin. I would'nt try to deny that Putin did'nt have an influence over him and I won't try to deny that the EU had influence over the matter either. It's a wash IMO.

 

[rob63]

Listening to the Russian perspective of the last 20 years, but the history of this conflict goes back a 1,000 years, and most Ukrainians are aware of the Russian atrocities against Ukraine in the last 100 years, and they fear it very much. They know the freedoms they have experienced in the last 20 years will shattered and they will disappear, to be followed by tyranny and hardship.

All of which is a fine explanation of why Ukraine is fighting back. I don't blame them one little bit. I wish them luck.

However, regardless of whatever they were fighting over 1,000 years ago, it is the last 20 years that are relevant to Putin's thinking and it is that which we need to understand to avoid a bigger mess.

Ok, so don't watch the other video, bunch of rotten little commies! Here is a different video of the same Univ. of Chicago professor, giving essentially the same speech, but covering broader topics, to a college in Canada. Hopefully, they have a logo more to your liking.

 

[gvbcraig]

You keep acting like Russian backed Yanukovych did'nt play a part in the dynamics of his own ousting as a puppet of Putin. I would'nt try to deny that Putin did'nt have an influence over him and I won't try to deny that the EU had influence over the matter either. It's a wash IMO.

I do not disagree, this was a fledgling democracy, with lots of snakes inside and out. That is why the Maidan Revolt occurred in 2014, and Putin saw the writing on the wall of the people and I am sure the planning for what is happening today started. First grabbing Crimea and then Donbas and now everything else.

 

[gvbcraig]

All of which is a fine explanation of why Ukraine is fighting back. I don't blame them one little bit. I wish them luck.

However, regardless of whatever they were fighting over 1,000 years ago, it is the last 20 years that are relevant to Putin's thinking and it is that which we need to understand to avoid a bigger mess.

Ok, so don't watch the other video, bunch of rotten little commies! Here is a different video of the same Univ. of Chicago professor, giving essentially the same speech, but covering broader topics, to a college in Canada. Hopefully, they have a logo more to your liking.

Rob6, I promise I will watch it with an open mind, even if it is Canadian.

 

[KG1]

I do not disagree, this was a fledgling democracy, with lots of snakes inside and out. That is why the Maidan Revolt occurred in 2014, and Putin saw the writing on the wall of the people and I am sure the planning for what is happening today started. First grabbing Crimea and then Donbas and now everything else.

I agree with the last part. Putin was losing the political battle within Ukraine, so he decided to take physical action. That's his M.O. even in his own country.

 

[KG1]

Same with DNR/LNR, Russia had plenty of opportunities to liberate these areas from Ukrainian rule but elected not to, why? Cause it served no purpose till now.

Putin bypassed Ukrainian internal affairs and forced his way into the country because he did'nt like how things were going.

His hasty scheme was all coordinated with the leaders of DNR/LNR. Here's the plan. "We'll recognize your autonomy and then you request our assistance to enter the country as "peacekeepers"

"Moscow had long refused to recognize the two republics, pointing to Minsk and calling the conflict an internal Ukrainian matter. On Monday, however, Putin said that Kiev had openly refused to comply with the Minsk agreements and signed a decree on the “long overdue” recognition of Donetsk and Lugansk."

 

[BugI02]

King's College is located in Cambridge, England. It was founded by King Henry VI in 1441. Purple is the color of royalty, thus, the purple gloved fist precedes the Communist fist by several centuries.

That was an awesome straw man misdirection, I'm sure it worked well to dissuade people from watching the video. However, it is Ukraine that continues to burn while we are unable to find a solution to this mess because we don't even begin to understand the underlying causes and keep doubling down on failed policies .[Why is it that the proffered 'solution to this mess', created by feckless leadership, always seems to be to roll over and accept the new reality]

No one is advocating that the invasion was justified or that Ukraine needs to give up its sovereignty. However, we do need to understand what the Russian perspective is to have any hope of reaching a solution. [He was unavailable for comment, but I believe Neville Chamberlain would approve of this sentiment]

My only hope is that we can find a solution before the nukes come out, crazy right?

The video I posted is an American professor simply explaining what the Russian perspective is, and the failed American policies that, in his view, have contributed to the problem. If we can't even have that much without smearing people with the Communist label, then we might as well sit back and enjoy watching the world burn.

As with Lebensraum, I believe it is far to late to 'find a solution to this mess' and giving Russia everything it claims to want will not stop the dying - it will just transfer it from the battlefield to interrogation rooms out of public view

At heart it is NATO/the EU's problem, and they should take the point

 

[idkfa]

You keep acting like Russian backed Yanukovych did'nt play a part in the dynamics of his own ousting as a puppet of Putin. I would'nt try to deny that Putin did'nt have an influence over him and I won't try to deny that the EU had influence over the matter either. It's a wash IMO.

No, I did mention Yanukovich and his role in one of the previous posts.
Not a good dude and likely Putin's puppet. You don't buy off like a million people to come out and play revolution, there has to be a real reason for it.

That being said, Yanukovich can be Putin's puppet all we want, but he was not threatening to build Russian military bases in Western Ukraine (or anywhere else), for one.
NATO's expansion was not provoked by Russian aggression, it's the other way around. So it's hardly a wash.
Griffin said it herself: Macgregor told Trump to remove troops from Germany. We know that Putin did not attack until a year into this administration -- who has been beating the war drums in public from day one and doing who-knows-what behind the scenes.

 

[KG1]

No, I did mention Yanukovich and his role in one of the previous posts.
Not a good dude and likely Putin's puppet. You don't buy off like a million people to come out and play revolution, there has to be a real reason for it.

That being said, Yanukovich can be Putin's puppet all we want, but he was not threatening to build Russian military bases in Western Ukraine (or anywhere else), for one.
NATO's expansion was not provoked by Russian aggression, it's the other way around. So it's hardly a wash.
Griffin said it herself: Macgregor told Trump to remove troops from Germany. We know that Putin did not attack until a year into this administration -- who has been beating the war drums in public from day one and doing who-knows-what behind the scenes.

I made the point earlier that Putin was'nt happy the EU, NATO and the U.S. were courting Ukraine in his backyard. It's true. They were. I'll not deny that it did'nt play a part in the current dynamics. My point about it being a wash is that there was plenty of influence interference going on from both sides that contributed to the conflict. Putin wanted them to stay out of Ukraine and they wanted Putin to stay out.

The bottom line is Putin was losing the battle of political puppets so he said "**** it. I'm going in"

 

[rob63]

As with Lebensraum, I believe it is far to late to 'find a solution to this mess' and giving Russia everything it claims to want will not stop the dying - it will just transfer it from the battlefield to interrogation rooms out of public view

At heart it is NATO/the EU's problem, and they should take the point

I don't necessarily disagree that it may not be possible to put the genie back in the bottle at this point. I hope not, but I don't know. I fear that we may only have the choice of being willing to let Russia occupy Eastern Ukraine or going to war with them over it. In the long run, an occupation only hurts the Russians and the Ukrainians, and presumably the Russians lose eventually, so that is likely what we will do. I just wish we could find a way that involves less suffering, and there is no predicting whether it will spiral out of control.

I agree that it is a NATO/EU problem at it's heart, but the US is the core of NATO so we can't pretend we aren't involved.

The thing I fear is that our current policy seems to be to do everything we can to isolate and destabilize Russia, without trying to work out a solution. Does it really make sense to make someone desperate, when he has nuclear weapons, and according to our own rhetoric is a mad man? I don't agree that he is a mad man, but it doesn't give me much confidence in the logical reasoning of the people pushing the narrative.

 

[idkfa]

I made the point earlier that Putin was'nt happy the EU, NATO and the U.S. were courting Ukraine in his backyard. It's true. They were. I'll not deny that it did'nt play a part in the current dynamics. My point about it being a wash is that there was plenty of influence interference going on from both sides that contributed to the conflict. Putin wanted them to stay out of Ukraine and they wanted Putin to stay out.

The bottom line is Putin was losing the battle of political puppets so he said "**** it. I'm going in"

That sounds about right, yeah.
Russian diplomacy and propaganda (strangely) failed big time.

 

[BugI02]

The thing I fear is that our current policy seems to be to do everything we can to isolate and destabilize Russia, without trying to work out a solution.

Yes, and with no plan for the mess made beyond the making of it

Think Libya 2011. People of the same mindset, indeed sometimes the same people, are in control

 

[Tombs]

Ukraine matters because innocent people are dying, do you need any other reason?

Innocent people were dying in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya... Bizarrely at our own hands.
Should we support ISIS because of that? No.

 

[Mikey1911]

Wonder how much the Bidens' have lost due to this

Not enough!!

 

[BigRed]

I suspect things may cool down a bit in Ukraine once the records of Birisma have been destroyed.

 

[wagyu52]

Innocent people were dying in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya... Bizarrely at our own hands.
Should we support ISIS because of that? No.

Oh, oh, I know, the answer is brown man.