Why can't your EMTs carry?

[Bill of Rights]

Ambulance on run hit by gunfire | FortWayne.com - Fort Wayne IN

Apparently, some guy was stabbed with a beer bottle and the one who did it stabbed him for a purpose. Not to be denied vengeance for whatever slight, the reported assailant then proceeded to follow and shoot up the family following the ambulance, then shoot up the ambulance, too. One of the caregivers in back was hit by bullet fragments and the driver was able to report a description of the accused's car and all four occupants were apprehended, but we don't know if they were found armed.

Interesting points from the article: The bar owner was so proud of his no-guns policy, cameras, staff trained in patdowns, and police presence in his club... Which did a great job of providing a nice little helpless victim for the shooter... and the spokesman for the ambulance acknowledged that his ambulances had been shot at before but their possible proposed solution is to have a police car accompany the ambulance... This is a great idea if you want one or the other emergency vehicle hit by another driver, not so much for actually protecting anyone.

I'm undecided as to whether or not the EMTs carrying would have been helpful or not, but I still disagree that the law should be used to prevent them from doing so.
(No, there's no law specifically criminalizing EMT carry, but all it takes is a call to the local school or other criminal protection zone to make them felons and unable not only to carry but to continue working in EMS.)

ETA: No, I do not want the law changed to make it OK for EMTs to carry at schools, etc. I want the law changed to decriminalize carry in those criminal protection zones by ALL the good people.

Comments are welcome.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[stephen87]

Well, as you may remember I have been trying to get stuff going with my local representative. Since that time of year is coming upon us again, we all need to write our reeps to try and push legislation through.

 

[gvonpaul]

Personally, as a paramedic, I don't think it's a good idea. People have to trust us and if they see us as pseudo police officers, they won't. In addition, I think if people knew we were carrying, it may put us in more danger. Being neutral allows us to play 'bad cop, good medic.'
We generally have good support from the police and the folks I know have a very high situational awareness. We try very hard not to put ourselves in situations where we are in danger. If we find ourselves in such a situation, we get out, quick.
Just my two cents.

 

[ggglobert9]

I was a Paramedic for 15 years...both Indy and Ft Wayne. Situational awareness and political awareness go "out the proverbial window" when you are being shot at as a whole. Been there done that. In Ft Wayne a good many years ago...we requested vests. We were denied. Told we should never be in a situation where we could "get shot'' ! Haha. We then offered to buy our own...denied again. Ducking, running for your life for cover and being able to return fire would have been preferred. Not sensationalizing. Not a glory hound. One rocket scientist type we worked for used to say "become a cop" if you don't like what you do. I didn't become a cop because I was a Paramedic and loved it. As far as being an armed Paramedic...Yep, I am for it. Another tool of the business.

 

[Ted]

I was a Paramedic for 15 years...both Indy and Ft Wayne. Situational awareness and political awareness go "out the proverbial window" when you are being shot at as a whole. Been there done that. In Ft Wayne a good many years ago...we requested vests. We were denied. Told we should never be in a situation where we could "get shot'' ! Haha. We then offered to buy our own...denied again. Ducking, running for your life for cover and being able to return fire would have been preferred. Not sensationalizing. Not a glory hound. One rocket scientist type we worked for used to say "become a cop" if you don't like what you do. I didn't become a cop because I was a Paramedic and loved it. As far as being an armed Paramedic...Yep, I am for it. Another tool of the business.

There are a number of security companies that don't allow their guards to wear vests either....for the same reasons.

Go figure.

 

[Benny]

Personally, as a paramedic, I don't think it's a good idea. People have to trust us and if they see us as pseudo police officers, they won't. In addition, I think if people knew we were carrying, it may put us in more danger. Being neutral allows us to play 'bad cop, good medic.'
We generally have good support from the police and the folks I know have a very high situational awareness. We try very hard not to put ourselves in situations where we are in danger. If we find ourselves in such a situation, we get out, quick.
Just my two cents.

So you are saying you will be in less danger if it is illegal for you to carry?

*Sigh*

I have nothing else to contribute here, since there is nothing I could say that you haven't already heard before.

 

[rhino]

I saw my state senator Phil Boots last Thursday having lunch at the same place. I thanked him for some excellent work on our behalf, which is something he doesn't hear much I think. As he was leaving, I asked him specifically to do what he could to help make our License to Carry Handgun valid on school grounds again (as it was before the mid 1990s). He'll try, but this is going to be a much bigger battle than any they've won so far.

 

[gvonpaul]

So you are saying you will be in less danger if it is illegal for you to carry?

*Sigh*

I have nothing else to contribute here, since there is nothing I could say that you haven't already heard before.

Paramedics aren't police officers but I would guarantee you that if they were allowed to carry, there are many who would try and act like they were. I have been a paramedic for 30 years (in an urban setting) and have never been in a situation where I needed a handgun. If there is potential danger evident in the initial call, the police are sent with us and we don't even approach the scene until PD has secured it.
People see us as neutral and are generally less antagonistic toward us than than they are toward the police. Years ago there was an uproar when IMPD's (then IPD) SWAT team used an old ambulance to respond in. We complained (rightfully so) that it put all of us in potential danger of people identifying us as the police. Eventually they stopped doing it.
Just out of curiosity, what would the Fort Wayne crew have done if they had been armed? Returned fire from the back of a moving ambulance? It was an unfortunate situation, no argument, but not one that happens on a routine basis.
I'm a big 2A advocate, but I don't really think anything would be served by allowing us to carry.

 

[Fixer]

I don't think anyone is advocating a movie scene shoot-out between the ambulance and the thugs while racing to the hospital. What happens if they decide to block in the ambulance and get out of their car and shoot everyone inside? We can just tell their loved ones that it was a risk of the job.

I can believe that they are responding to the same call as a LEO yet we don't feel the need for them to be as prepared. Most LEO have never been in a situation that they had to use their gun, but they still carry one. Most have not been shot at but they all are given vests.

At the very least they should be given the option along with the proper training to protect themselves as they see fit.

 

[Ted]

Paramedics aren't police officers but I would guarantee you that if they were allowed to carry, there are many who would try and act like they were. I have been a paramedic for 30 years (in an urban setting) and have never been in a situation where I needed a handgun. If there is potential danger evident in the initial call, the police are sent with us and we don't even approach the scene until PD has secured it.
People see us as neutral and are generally less antagonistic toward us than than they are toward the police. Years ago there was an uproar when IMPD's (then IPD) SWAT team used an old ambulance to respond in. We complained (rightfully so) that it put all of us in potential danger of people identifying us as the police. Eventually they stopped doing it.
Just out of curiosity, what would the Fort Wayne crew have done if they had been armed? Returned fire from the back of a moving ambulance? It was an unfortunate situation, no argument, but not one that happens on a routine basis.
I'm a big 2A advocate, but I don't really think anything would be served by allowing us to carry.

Unfortunately, there are those that haven't been so fortunate.

I'm torn about arming EMTs for all the reasons you outlined, but also because 2A is a right inherent to all free men. Allow the disarming of one occupation, all other occupations are subject to fall accordingly.

Just like disarming the black man.......and it came to pass that the white man has been disarmed as well. Its a huge, slippery slope.

 

[jgreiner]

Personally, as a paramedic, I don't think it's a good idea. People have to trust us and if they see us as pseudo police officers, they won't. In addition, I think if people knew we were carrying, it may put us in more danger. Being neutral allows us to play 'bad cop, good medic.'
We generally have good support from the police and the folks I know have a very high situational awareness. We try very hard not to put ourselves in situations where we are in danger. If we find ourselves in such a situation, we get out, quick.
Just my two cents.

My daughter works in an ER.....and they get a lot of folks in looking for drug handouts, fixes, etc. The ER security staff is 70 plus years old, and unarmed.

Many of the nurses carry to work.

 

[stephen87]

There is a member on INGO, I forget who, that had a knife pulled on them while on a "nonviolent" call. If I remember right, it was a call for a heart attack.

 

[JettaKnight]

Ambulance on run hit by gunfire | FortWayne.com - Fort Wayne IN

Things to note:

• Suspect (white Ford Crown Vic) AND victim (black Chevrolet Impala) vehicles are same make and models as those used by police.
• Stabbing victim has mugshot on file.

 

[stephen87]

Things to note:

• Suspect (white Ford Crown Vic) AND victim (black Chevrolet Impala) vehicles are same make and models as those used by police.
• Stabbing victim has mugshot on file.

Why are those important and why should they prevent EMTs from carrying?

 

[rhino]

Why should EMTs and paramedics be less prepared for daily life than the average person who is not in those professions?

 

[stephen87]

They shouldn't. Being as close to people as they are, a lot closer than most people, they should be MORE prepared and as capable as they are prepared.

 

[Cricket Tickler]

I carry on my ankle every shift. I've never needed it and hope I never do, but it's there. Always will be too.

 

[LawDog76]

Gillespie said ambulances in the city have been hit by stray bullets a few times but he knew of nothing like Sunday's shooting.

"We don't have anything documented where it was an attempt to cause harm," he said.

This is only a half truth. I know medics from TRAA that have been robbed for their narcs on their trucks. Yeah they weren't shot at but they've had guns pulled on them in the past.

 

[10-32]

Posted this in another thread but here's the shooters CCH.

02D04-0506-IF-008930
Jackson, Traneilous L
06/20/2005
Allen Superior Court 6
IF - Infraction
Decided
NO SAFETY BELT/PASSENGER


02D04-0704-MC-000687
Jackson, Traneilous L
04/09/2007
Allen Superior Court 5
MC - Miscellaneous Criminal
Decided
P.C. REC STOLEN PROPERTY
POSSESSION OF MARIJUANA
CARRYING HANDGUN W/O LICENSE


02D04-0805-CM-003466
Jackson, Traneilous L
05/27/2008
Allen Superior Court 4
CM - Criminal Misdemeanor
Decided
CARRYING HANDGUN W/O LICENSE


02D04-0902-CM-000749
Jackson, Traneilous L
02/10/2009
Allen Superior Court 4
CM - Criminal Misdemeanor
Decided
POSSESSION OF MARIJUANA
DRIVING LEFT CENTER

02D04-0906-IF-007113
Jackson, Traneilous L
06/03/2009
Allen Superior Court 4
IF - Infraction
Decided
OPERATE WHILE SUSP (INF)
EXCEED MAX LAWFUL SPEEDS


02D04-0906-IF-007416
Jackson, Traneilous L
06/08/2009
Allen Superior Court 6
IF - Infraction
Decided
NO OP. LICENSE IN POSS'N


02D05-1010-MC-002141
JACKSON, TRANEILOUS L
10/05/2010
Allen Superior Court 5
MC - Miscellaneous Criminal (Citation)
Decided
35-47-2-1/FC: Carrying Handgun w/o License-Prior/Prior Felony w/in 15 Yrs/School Prop, School Bus
35-43-4-2(b)/FD: Receiving Stolen Property
9-24-19-2/MA: Driving While Suspended (Prior w/in 10 years)


02D05-1010-FC-000230
Jackson, Traneilous L.
10/08/2010
Allen Superior Court 5
FC - Class C Felony
Decided
35-47-2-1/FC: Carrying Handgun w/o License-Prior/Prior Felony w/in 15 Yrs/School Prop, School Bus
9-24-19-2/MA: Driving While Suspended (Prior w/in 10 years)


02D05-1011-MC-002427
Jackson, Traneilous L
11/10/2010
Allen Superior Court 5
MC - Miscellaneous Criminal (Citation)
Decided
35-47-2-1/FC: Carrying Handgun w/o License-Prior/Prior Felony w/in 15 Yrs/School Prop, School Bus
35-48-4-11/FD: Possession Marijuana/Hash Oil/Hashish - Amount Involved OR Prior Conviction
35-43-4-2(b)/FD: Receiving Stolen Property
9-24-19-2/MA: Driving While Suspended (Prior w/in 10 years)
9-19-19-4(c)/IFC: Window Tint Violation by Driver


02D06-1011-FC-000267
Jackson, Traneilous L
11/16/2010
Allen Superior Court 5
FC - Class C Felony
Decided
35-47-2-1/FC: Carrying Handgun w/o License-Prior/Prior Felony w/in 15 Yrs/School Prop, School Bus
35-48-4-11/FD: Possession Marijuana/Hash Oil/Hashish - Amount Involved OR Prior Conviction
9-24-19-2/MA: Driving While Suspended (Prior w/in 10 years)


02D04-1105-CM-003090
Jackson, Traneilous L
05/24/2011
Allen Superior Court 4
CM - Criminal Misdemeanor
Decided
35-42-2-1(a)(1)(A)/MA: Battery Resulting in Bodily Injury


***These charges are pending***
02D05-1209-MC-002429
JACKSON, TRANEILOUS L
09/10/2012
Allen Superior Court 5
MC - Miscellaneous Criminal (Citation)
Pending
35-42-2-1.5/FB: Aggravated Battery: knowingly or intentionally inflicts injury on a person
35-42-2-2(c)(3)(A)/FC: Crim Recklessness-Shot Firearm Into Inhab Dwelling/Other Gathering Place
35-47-2-1/FC: Carrying Handgun w/o License-Prior/Prior Felony w/in 15 Yrs/School Prop, School Bus
35-42-2-1(a)(3)/FC: Battery Committed by Means of a Deadly Weapon or Resulting in SBI

 

[vitamink]

Most LEO have never been in a situation that they had to use their gun, but they still carry one. Most have not been shot at but they all are given vests.
.

There's that dreaded "most LEO" statement.
If you are on the street as an LEO, work in a city, and you've been there for at least 5 years, you have most certainly been shot at and probably more than once. If you've been an LEO for 2 weeks, you have had to point your gun at someone.

I'm not disagreeing with your logic, just your statement. I think medics should get to carry if they want to. I know of several times in indy where if i were a medic i'd wish i had a gun.

I.E. Crazy diabetic guy grabs a pik pole off an IFD firetruck and tries to spear the police and the medics.