when do I legally have to show I.D. / LTCH when a cop requests it?

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  • pftraining_in

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    In 1997, the United States Supreme Court held, in Maryland v. Wilson, that it is reasonable for officers to order passengers in a lawfully stopped automobile to exit the vehicle.i The court reasoned that there must be a balance during a traffic stop between the need of the police to maintain officer safety and the Fourth Amendment rights of passengers. The court concluded that a passenger is only minimally inconvenienced, and basically, the most significant change in the passenger’s circumstance is that they will be outside rather than inside the vehicle.
    Given Maryland v. Wilson, the question has now become, “May the police require the passenger in a lawfully stopped automobile to remain inside the vehicle during a traffic stop?” The Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals recently addressed this very question when they decided the United States v. Sanders.ii The incident began when a deputy with the Jackson County, Missouri, Sheriff’s Department conducted a lawful traffic stop based upon a traffic violation on a man named Wilson. Wilson pulled into an apartment complex that could be characterized as a “high crime” area and stopped next to a building. A passenger in Wilson’s car named Sanders exited the car. The deputy repeatedly ordered Sanders to reenter the car and Sanders eventually complied. When the deputy approached the car, he observed a pistol grip protruding from Sander’s left, front pocket. Back-up arrived and Sanders was removed from the car; a handgun was removed from his pocket.
    Sanders was charged federally with unlawful possession of a firearm.iii He filed a motion to suppress and argued that the deputy violated his Fourth Amendment rights by ordering him to reenter the stopped car, thereby detaining him without reasonable suspicion that he was involved in criminal activity. Sanders reasoned that if he was unlawfully detained at the traffic stop, then the recovery of the handgun was a result of the unlawful detention, and therefore, fruit of the poisonous tree. The motion to suppress was denied by the district court and Sanders appealed to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals.
    The Eighth Circuit noted that, while the United States Supreme Court has not specifically addressed this issue, they have addressed situations that offer guidance on this topic. First, as noted above, Maryland v. Wilson stands for the proposition that officers may order a passenger in a lawfully stopped vehicle to exit the vehicle during the traffic stop. The Supreme Court reasoned that “officer safety” is a “weighty interest” on a traffic stop given the number of assaults that occur on officers during traffic stops.iv The presence of passengers only increases the risk to officers further justifying the need of officer control over the situation.v
    Second, in Brendlin v. California, the Supreme Court held that, when police stop a car, the passengers in the car, in addition to the driver, are seized because a reasonable passenger would not believe himself free to leave.vi Specifically, the court said “a sensible person would not expect a police officer to allow people to come and go freely from the physical focal point of an investigation into faulty behavior or wrongdoing... even when the wrongdoing is only bad driving, the passenger will expect to be subject to some scrutiny, and his attempt to leave the scene would be so obviously likely to prompt an objection from the officer that no passenger would feel free to leave in the first place.”vii
    Next, the court considered Michigan v. Summers, where the Supreme Court held that officers could order a person leaving a house to reenter the house and remain there while officers executed a search warrant.viii In fact, when the Supreme Court decided Maryland v. Wilson, they cited Summers and stated that “the risk of harm to both the police and the occupants is minimized if the officers routinely exercise unquestioned command of the situation.”ix
    The Eighth Circuit then, in light of the above analysis, stated that the reasoning in Wilson and Summers applies equally to the facts of Sanders; therefore, the deputy did not violate the Fourth Amendment when he ordered Sanders to reenter the car.x The court also considered, in addition to the above analysis, the following: the officer was in a high crime area; it was dark; the officer was outnumber by the occupants of the stopped car; and the officer testified it was his usual practice to have all occupants remain in the vehicle for his safety. Additionally, the intrusion to Sanders during this incident was minimal. The court noted that as soon as Sanders reentered the car, the deputy approached and saw the gun. Thus, the amount of time Sanders was detained without reasonable suspicion was de minimis (so minimal it is unimportant). Once the officer saw the gun, he then had reasonable suspicion to detain Sanders.
    It is also important to note that the Eighth Circuit stated that it was not deciding whether an officer may forcibly detain a passenger for the entire duration of the stop without reasonable suspicion that the passenger is or was engaged in criminal activity.xi The court did not need to decide this question because the facts of Sanders did not require it –once the officer saw the gun in Sander’s pocket, the officer then possessed reasonable suspicion to detain him.
    In conclusion, the rule we can take from Sanders is that it is constitutionally reasonable for officers to order a passenger in lawfully stopped automobile to remain inside the automobile or to reenter the automobile.xii It is important to note that the rule of this case is only binding in the Eighth Circuit, although other Circuits have reached similar results.xiii Other circuits or states may reach a different conclusion.

    i519 U.S. 408 (1997)
    ii No. 07-1407, 2007 U.S. App. LEXIS 29393 (8th Cir. December 20, 2007)

    iii 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1)

    iv Wilson, 519 U.S. at 413

    v Id.

    vi 127 S. Ct. 2400, 2407 (2007)

    vii Id.

    viii 452 U.S. 692 (1981)

    ix Wilson, 519 U.S. at 414 (quoting Summers, 452 U.S. at 702-703)

    x Sanders at 6-7

    xi Id. at 10 n. 7

    xii Id. at 6-7

    xiii Id. at 10 n. 7 See United States v. Williams, 419 F.3d 1029, 1034 (9th Cir.) ("We hold that HN7 under the Fourth Amendment it is reasonable for an officer to order a passenger back into an automobile . . . because the concerns for officer safety . . . and specifically the need for officers to exercise control . . . outweigh the marginal intrusion on the passenger's liberty interest."), cert. denied, 546 U.S. 1081, 126 S. Ct. 840, 163 L. Ed. 2d 715 (2005); ...United States v. Moorefield, 111 F.3d 10, 11 (3rd Cir. 1997) (holding that "police officers may constitutionally order occupants of cars to remain in the vehicle with their hands up in the air"); cf. Rogala v. District of Columbia, 333 U.S. App. D.C. 145, 161 F.3d 44, 53 (D.C. Cir. 1998) ,(involving a passenger who did not attempt to leave the scene; summarily affirming and reprinting the district court's opinion, which held that "it follows from Maryland v. Wilson that a police officer has the power to reasonably control the situation by requiring a passenger to remain in a vehicle during a traffic stop"); see also United States v. Holt, 264 F.3d 1215, 1223 (10th Cir. 2001) (en banc) (stating in dictum that "during a routine traffic stop, an officer may . . . order the passengers to remain in the vehicle").
     

    U.S. Patriot

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    Depends on the situation in my opinion. Lets say you are in Walmart. Someone sees you have a gun. Instead of a manager, or whatever politely asking you to leave or cover it etc. Instead they call the police. You go to leave, and are confronted by a police officer/officers. They ask for I.D., and if you have a LTCH. You have two choices. Option one, tell them no. That you will not produce said documentation. Risk being handcuffed, having your gun taken, and possibly thrown in the back of the squad car. Right, or wrong still not a fun situation. I personally see it as a unnecessary situation. Or option two, say no problem. Hopefully by doing so things will go smooth. There is no guarantee, but it may help to avoid a awkward situation. The choice is yours. Please do not think, that by showing I.D., etc. That you are forfeiting your rights in anyway. If I'm treated with professionalism, and have nothing to hide I just want to get it over with and be on my way. Instead of possibly getting stuck is an a escalated situation. Of course, I'm a non confrontational person. Unless I feel threatened, or feel like my rights are being violated. Still sometimes it's best, to just comply and fight the battle later. That's my personal view on the situation!
     

    bglaze

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    Depends on the situation in my opinion. Lets say you are in Walmart. Someone sees you have a gun. Instead of a manager, or whatever politely asking you to leave or cover it etc. Instead they call the police. You go to leave, and are confronted by a police officer/officers. They ask for I.D., and if you have a LTCH. You have two choices. Option one, tell them no. That you will not produce said documentation. Risk being handcuffed, having your gun taken, and possibly thrown in the back of the squad car. Right, or wrong still not a fun situation. I personally see it as a unnecessary situation. Or option two, say no problem. Hopefully by doing so things will go smooth. There is no guarantee, but it may help to avoid a awkward situation. The choice is yours. Please do not think, that by showing I.D., etc. That you are forfeiting your rights in anyway. If I'm treated with professionalism, and have nothing to hide I just want to get it over with and be on my way. Instead of possibly getting stuck is an a escalated situation. Of course, I'm a non confrontational person. Unless I feel threatened, or feel like my rights are being violated. Still sometimes it's best, to just comply and fight the battle later. That's my personal view on the situation!

    I understand where you are coming from, and I think a lot of people hold to that same logic. There is definitely some good wisdom there, but as a personal choice I happen to be taking a different stance.

    To me, it is worth letting the situation escalate in order to teach cops that they cannot harass citizens who are going about their daily lives in a perfectly legal manner. I don't care how professional I am being treated. They have no business confronting me and asking for my I.D. in the first place if I am not under suspicion of committing a crime. By the mere act of stopping me and asking for I.D., they are treating me like a criminal. If I am in public, and I am being officially questioned by police with my I.D. out, any passers by are free to infer that I have broken the law. This is an embarrassing situation that I shouldn't be forced into every day of my life just because I choose to lawfully carry a gun. It's discrimination, and it needs to be viewed as such by our community in order for gun owners to stop being vilified.

    Someone has to stand up to the harassment by not complying to these unnecessary and invasive stops.

    In history, no good changes in Civil Rights have come about because people avoided confrontation. Laws and society have changed for the better only when people get fed up with being discriminated against and finally decide to stand for what is right.

    I am not saying you or anyone else is wrong for choosing to act in a compliant fashion. I believe you just haven't reached the level of "fed up" that I have. I am to the point where I am willing to go outside my comfort zone and say, "no more!"

    The moment a cop stops me as a response to a MWAG call, I plan to use it as a good teaching experience.

    I will pull out my Blackberry, turn on my voice recorder, inform the officer that he/she is being audio recorded, then I will proceed to refuse to show them my I.D. unless they can tell me what crime or infraction I have committed.

    When they say they are just responding to a complaint, I will make a complaint of my own and request that they go back to the original caller and explain to them that licensed citizens may legally carry in this state and that they should save their calls for when someone is truly acting suspiciously.

    I respect police very much, and I want to be clear that my "civil disobedience" will be done with the utmost respect and professionalism. I will not raise my voice with cops. I will not call them names or get irate. I will calmly state my refusal if they say I have committed no crime. I will also be posting any voice recordings right on this website if a confrontation of this sort ever happens to me. I will welcome any criticisms of how I handled a situation at that time, and I will adjust my tactics as necessary. =)

    I very much want to educate the police and the public, so that they are knowledgeable to know that gun owners are not going to put up with needless harassment.
     

    Fargo

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    To me, it is worth letting the situation escalate in order to teach cops that they cannot harass citizens who are going about their daily lives in a perfectly legal manner. I don't care how professional I am being treated. They have no business confronting me and asking for my I.D. in the first place if I am not under suspicion of committing a crime. By the mere act of stopping me and asking for I.D., they are treating me like a criminal. If I am in public, and I am being officially questioned by police with my I.D. out, any passers by are free to infer that I have broken the law. This is an embarrassing situation that I shouldn't be forced into every day of my life just because I choose to lawfully carry a gun. It's discrimination, and it needs to be viewed as such by our community in order for gun owners to stop being vilified.

    Someone has to stand up to the harassment by not complying to these unnecessary and invasive stops.


    Unfortunately, due to the fact that having a license is basically an affirmative defense in Indiana, it is perfectly legal for them to arrest you, book you, and prosecute you until YOU PROVIDE YOUR LICENSE.

    Re-read the statute's I posted. I don't agree with it in any way, but it is what appears to be the law.


    IC 35-47-2-24
    Indictment or information; defendant's burden to prove exemption or license; arrest, effect of production of valid license, or establishment of exemption
    Sec. 24. (a) In an information or indictment brought for the enforcement of any provision of this chapter, it is not necessary to negate any exemption specified under this chapter, or to allege the absence of a license required under this chapter. The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, or that he has a license as required under this chapter.
    (b) Whenever a person who has been arrested or charged with a violation of section 1 of this chapter presents a valid license to the prosecuting attorney or establishes that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, any prosecution for a violation of section 1 of this chapter shall be dismissed immediately, and all records of an arrest or proceedings following arrest shall be destroyed immediately.
    As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

    Not legal advice just my opinion.

    Joe
     

    bglaze

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    Unfortunately, due to the fact that having a license is basically an affirmative defense in Indiana, it is perfectly legal for them to arrest you, book you, and prosecute you until YOU PROVIDE YOUR LICENSE.

    Re-read the statute's I posted. I don't agree with it in any way, but it is what appears to be the law.




    Not legal advice just my opinion.

    Joe

    Thanks for that link. I definitely understand that it is my duty to prove that I am licensed. You have to have a driver's license to drive a car, and you have to have a license to carry a handgun.

    A cop cannot pull you over just to verify that you are a licensed driver. The same rule should apply to handgun owners (I'm not saying it does, but it should). You should not have to be subject to random stops and interrogations just because you choose to carry a handgun.

    I am fully prepared to suffer the consequences of my civil disobedience. I may one day be posting all about my experience in getting arrested! =)

    Even if it is truly against the law to refuse to show an officer my I.D. when he harasses me and requests it without any suspicion that I've committed a crime, to me the misdemeanor charge is well worth it to exercise civil disobedience in such an instance. Some bad press might do them good as an educational experience.

    Since I plan on audio recording (possibly video recording) any incidents with police concerning these issues, you will all be able to see first hand how it goes down if it ever happens to me. I'm sure the cops will not like the audio or video recorder in their face during their questioning of me, but it's going to be excellent information for us all. I wish there was a plethora of audio or video encounters of these types for us to reference, but it's got to start somewhere.
     

    wtfd661

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    Thanks for that link. I definitely understand that it is my duty to prove that I am licensed. You have to have a driver's license to drive a car, and you have to have a license to carry a handgun.

    A cop cannot pull you over just to verify that you are a licensed driver. The same rule should apply to handgun owners (I'm not saying it does, but it should). You should not have to be subject to random stops and interrogations just because you choose to carry a handgun.

    I am fully prepared to suffer the consequences of my civil disobedience. I may one day be posting all about my experience in getting arrested! =)

    Even if it is truly against the law to refuse to show an officer my I.D. when he harasses me and requests it without any suspicion that I've committed a crime, to me the misdemeanor charge is well worth it to exercise civil disobedience in such an instance. Some bad press might do them good as an educational experience.

    Since I plan on audio recording (possibly video recording) any incidents with police concerning these issues, you will all be able to see first hand how it goes down if it ever happens to me. I'm sure the cops will not like the audio or video recorder in their face during their questioning of me, but it's going to be excellent information for us all. I wish there was a plethora of audio or video encounters of these types for us to reference, but it's got to start somewhere.


    Better yet you should take off running yelling "your never going to take me alive copper " :runaway:
     

    OAK

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    I've seen a LEO card young looking smokers outside a walmart parking lot in Greenwood. If they have reasonable cause they can ID you or even detain you.
     

    bglaze

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    I've seen a LEO card young looking smokers outside a walmart parking lot in Greenwood. If they have reasonable cause they can ID you or even detain you.

    I agree with you. "Looking too young" is a reasonable enough suspicion for an officer to question a teenager who is seen drinking or smoking. He truly has a reasonable suspicion that said person is committing a crime.

    However, what would be the reasonable cause to ID me, a well dressed civilian with a gun in an expensive brown leather OWB holster, who is minding his own business?

    If a cop can give me a reasonable explanation for why he stopped me other than "You have a gun," or "Someone else was scared when they saw your gun," I will be happy to comply fully. I have no angst towards cops. In fact, I feel truly indebted to them for the fact that they throw themselves into harm's way every day to keep the streets safe for me and my family.

    My stance comes from the fact that carrying a gun as a civilian is becoming very stigmatized. Even within the gun owning community Open Carry is frowned upon by many. We tell ourselves we should hide our guns because others don't approve of them. We are treating ourselves as if we are doing something wrong, immoral, or unethical. I think it needs to stop, and the only way to do that is to convince one citizen, one cop, one fellow gun owner at a time.

    I don't think everyone should Open Carry. I do it for these socio-political reasons. If you don't believe you could handle yourself calmly in a confrontation with other civilians or cops, or your knowledge of Indiana gun laws is very weak, or you just don't want to deal with the hassle, then Open Carry not for you. I have no problem with concealed carry. I conceal often as well...
     
    Last edited:

    Beau

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    IC 35-47-2-24
    Indictment or information; defendant's burden to prove exemption or license; arrest, effect of production of valid license, or establishment of exemption
    Sec. 24. (a) In an information or indictment brought for the enforcement of any provision of this chapter, it is not necessary to negate any exemption specified under this chapter, or to allege the absence of a license required under this chapter. The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, or that he has a license as required under this chapter.
    (b) Whenever a person who has been arrested or charged with a violation of section 1 of this chapter presents a valid license to the prosecuting attorney or establishes that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, any prosecution for a violation of section 1 of this chapter shall be dismissed immediately, and all records of an arrest or proceedings following arrest shall be destroyed immediately.
    As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.
    de·fend·ant

       /dɪˈfɛn
    thinsp.png
    dənt or, especially in court for 1, -dænt/ Show Spelled[dih-fen-duh
    thinsp.png
    nt or, especially in court for 1, -dant] Show IPA
    –noun 1. Law . a person, company, etc., against whom a claim or charge is brought in a court ( opposed to plaintiff).

    I disagree with your interpretation of this code. I see nothing in it that gives LE the right to stop you for carrying and demand to see your license.
     

    JusAdSumBellum

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    At what point am I legally bound to show a cop my I.D. and/or my LTCH if I am asked?

    Does he have to have a reasonable suspicion that I am committing a crime in order to legally ask for my I.D. or my LTCH? Or, can he just ask for it because someone complained to him about my OCing?

    I guess I understand that a cop can ask me for whatever he wants. So, my question should really just be: when do I HAVE to show it to him?

    I know tons of people have probably already answered this. With out looking at what they have to say I want to take a crack at this. (ill look at it after)

    Because it is illegal to carry a handgun with out a license I would say that when an officer asks for your license he is only performing an investigation of a crime being committed. His investigation is of whether or not you can legally carry that firearm. If you refuse you are inhibiting his ability to investigate that crime.

    I guess though the same argument could be made on drivers licenses. (anyone can be pulled over to ensure they can legally drive the vehicle)

    Like I said <no lawyer or anything. Just rambling I guess.
     

    Bill of Rights

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    Where's the bacon?
    de·fend·ant

       /dɪˈfɛn
    thinsp.png
    dənt or, especially in court for 1, -dænt/ Show Spelled[dih-fen-duh
    thinsp.png
    nt or, especially in court for 1, -dant] Show IPA
    –noun 1. Law . a person, company, etc., against whom a claim or charge is brought in a court ( opposed to plaintiff).

    I disagree with your interpretation of this code. I see nothing in it that gives LE the right to stop you for carrying and demand to see your license.

    That's because you're looking at the wrong section:

    IC 35-47-2-1
    Carrying a handgun without a license or by person convicted of domestic battery
    Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body, except in the person's dwelling, on the person's property or fixed place of business, without a license issued under this chapter being in the person's possession.
    (b) Unless the person's right to possess a firearm has been restored under IC 35-47-4-7, a person who has been convicted of domestic battery under IC 35-42-2-1.3 may not possess or carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body in the person's dwelling or on the person's property or fixed place of business.
    As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.326-1987, SEC.1; P.L.195-2003, SEC.6; P.L.98-2004, SEC.155; P.L.118-2007, SEC.35.
    IC 35-47-2-2
    Excepted persons
    Sec. 2. Section 1 of this chapter does not apply to:
    (1) marshals;
    (2) sheriffs;
    (3) the commissioner of the department of correction or persons authorized by him in writing to carry firearms;
    (4) judicial officers;
    (5) law enforcement officers;
    (6) members of the armed forces of the United States or of the national guard or organized reserves while they are on duty;
    (7) regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States or from this state who are at or are going to or from their place of assembly or target practice;
    (8) employees of the United States duly authorized to carry handguns;
    (9) employees of express companies when engaged in company business;
    (10) any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms or the agent or representative of any such person having in his possession, using, or carrying a handgun in the usual or ordinary course of that business; or
    (11) any person while carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his dwelling or fixed place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his dwelling or fixed place of business, or in moving from one dwelling or business to another.
    As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

    Per 35-47-2-1, it is an unlawful act to carry a handgun unless you are on your own property (home or fixed place of business) or one of the excepted groups listed in 35-47-2-2, and if the group of which you are a member is that group of persons holding a license issued under that chapter, per the quoted section (35-47-2-24), the burden of proof is on you... that is, they don't have to prove you violated the law, as the gun is prima facie evidence of that fact, absent the LTCH.

    That said, the other example is equally true: it is an unlawful act to drive a motor vehicle on a public roadway absent a DL, but the officer is not permitted to stop you from driving solely on the basis of the fact that you were doing so and might not have a proper license.

    I have seen (on here, IIRC) examples of cases where an officer has said that the reason they stop and question those carrying firearms and not vehicle drivers is simply a question of numbers; that is, there are so many more people driving than carrying, it's easy to stop all those who carry guns visibly, and not so much so to stop those who might be driving unlawfully.

    By that logic, if suddenly, IN went from between 6 and 10% to upwards of 90% of citizens carrying, it would suddenly become reasonable to stop vehicle drivers instead of gun carriers... just to make sure. I wonder if that argument would carry any weight (setting precedent, for example) with the IN Supreme Court, or even SCOTUS.

    Blessings,
    Bill
     

    zebov

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    I do find it quite odd though that bearing arms is a right explicitly guaranteed by both the U.S. and Indiana constitutions, whereas there is no right to choose our mode of transportation, but the latter is more free from inspection than the former.

    Perhaps a wording change is needed in the laws. What type of wording would make the burden of proof be on the prosecutor to prove a defendant is not licensed? Or would that require making it legal UNLESS that right has been revoked by due process?

    I'm starting to see why license-free carry laws are so popular.

    EDIT: Oh, and as far as the OP goes, Brown vs. Texas 1979 is a great read: BROWN V. TEXAS, 443 U. S. 47 :: Volume 443 :: 1979 :: Full Text :: US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez
     
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