What is your EDC reload plan?

[rhino]

My understanding is that the most likely cause of a pistol malfunction is a magazine issue. That information could be wrong, but that’s why I carry a spare. Extra rounds are great, but probably not too likely to be needed in a self defense situation. Having a spare in case a malfunction arises is probably a more likely scenario.

To answer the OP, my thought is to shoot until empty or the threat stops in a self defense scenario. I would like to know the statistics of how often someone shoots through a modern high capacity magazine and needs the additional rounds. Now, if you’re still living in the land before television was invented and still carry a 1911, that may be a different story. Sorry, CM.

In addition to malfunctions, consider that it's not uncommon for magazines to become unseated, even when holstered. If that happens and is not noticed before the gun is needed, drawing and presenting will make a 17+1 shooter into a 1 shooter. If you're moving when this happens as you should be, recovering the only magazine you have from the ground could be problematic if someone is trying to harm you. Better have a plan B.

"But that never happens to me!" Until it does.

 

[Coach]

My carry plan for more than a decade was I was going to pull my gun and shoot it until it was empty or the threat was stopped. If I was empty and the threat was not stopped I would reload and shoot until the stop. If a body looks around he/she can find plenty of support for that mentality. If it is right or wrong is really not important. It was what I had decided to do. Why take a gun that is working apart in a gun fight? It does not make a lot of sense to do that.

There is talk and conjecture about a lull. If in a lull why not top the gun off. When I sit and contemplate that makes a lot of sense. What if a lull never happens? Keep shooting as long as possible then reload.

I go to the Range Master Tactical Conference a few times. I sit in on a variety of lectures and sessions. There are a few different or divergent philosophies on reloads. Darryl Bloke (I have no idea how he spells his name and I don't when the big bastard is not around) gave a lecture about the proactive reload. He said when he/they changed their training plan and practice their officers stopped running the guns dry in gunfights and he/they concluded that was a good thing. I remember writing that down in my notes and it resonated with me at the time as a gem of an idea at the time. That was in 2017 I believe.

In May I was re-united with a former wrestler from the late 1990's. Tom was a wrestler for me in 1995, 1996, 1997. He is the toughest person that I know and I know quite a few tough sons of *****es. He is currently in Marine Force Recon and is a master sergeant. He has had six combat deployments in the last 18 years. We were sitting around talking and room clearing came up. He gave me a one hour clinic on how to do it. It was very informative. One gem in the middle of that clinic was to keep the gun in "best possible condition". That struck me like a bolt of lighting and it fits with proactively reloading the gun.

Tom said that if he was clearing a house or dwelling and shot even 1 round in a room, that he would always change the magazine before proceeding to the next room. Therefore the gun would be in the best possible condition for whatever was found in the next room. He was as equipped as he could be for whatever loomed in the next room.

I teach a variety of classes and I teach in two different although similar fields. I teach competition pistol and I teach defensive pistol, and a lot of introductory pistol. I stand behind a ton of shooters and I watch a lot of them run dry during a drill and/stage/scenario when they should not run dry. If the shooters run dry in practice/ class/ competition/ training what do we expect to happen when it is for real?

Last week in the Carry League session I was running we were working on using cover/concealment. I incorporate the concept of keeping the gun in "best possible condition". For the first time ever. Not one single shooter ran dry in the middle of repetition. This was the largest carry league I have had in three years at Parabellum. Not one single person ran dry. That is a first. Making me think there is something to this concept that is significant.

In the past for example doing a figure 8 drill. Many people shoot the threats and then scan with only 1 round or no rounds in the gun. If you are scanning for additional threats and you find one. You will need enough rounds to deal with that threat.

This might be an area of your EDC to consider.

Thoughts?

 

[Bfish]

I like these threads coach. First off, sorry to everyone for what are some bad run-on sentences and other grammatical issues. To some it matters, to me it's INGO and it's a sound board I spew into. This is also exactly what I needed to procrastinate more work I should be doing!

I carry my pistol appendix and a magazine in the same holster to the other side of my belt buckle from my pistol on the support side.
For defensive stuff I use the acronym F.A.S.T. Fight-Assess-Scan-Topoff, and there are some more T's that can come along there at the end as well. Take cover, Talk etc. But basically shoot the gun, if it runs dry reload it, if there is a malfunction that a tap rack doesn't fix then reload it. Assess that the threat is over, Scan for more threats, Top off your gun. You can retrieve a mag on the ground if you think it's got something in it after you believe you are no longer in danger, and move on down the checklist.

I get what you are saying that if you are scanning for additional threats with a round or two in your mag this could be problematic, I see what you mean about reloading, and you could do this while scanning I'd say. The only thing I can think of is that if you only have one more mag why go ahead and make a change if you are really concerned about running out of rounds, It'd suck to drop a mag with say 10 rounds in it because you only fired 6 (because you just crapped your pants and have no idea what's in your gun) to put 15 in the gun and then run that dry and have nothing left but there is a 2/3 full mag (1/3 of your ammo) on the ground somewhere. I personally feel like this could be more of a risk than scanning to fire a round or two at a new threat and then have to reload. I'd rather fire a round or two and run dry to have to beat feet or get new cover etc. and get it loaded (I think) and have more rounds over all than just a fresh mag in the gun. Especially if I'm now in a situation dealing with multiple attackers and only two mags total I'll take all 31 rounds not 20 of them (I'm not considering a tac reload because of the following). I say all of this because like Brad eluded to up thread, i'll probably have stained my pants at the very least figuratively to where I won't be "thinking" at the highest level per say. I'll just be doing/reacting with what I've trained and practiced. If I were a police officer with 4 mags on my belt would I think differently? Maybe? I kind of subscribe to the KISS method in this are of defensive shooting because I'm sure I'll be crapping myself and having a set method is better for our monkey brains is better even though I may feel I'm of fairly high intelligence under normal circumstances.

The Marine, and the guy teaching officers were both working with a lot of magazines on their bodies and not just 1 or maybe 2 extras. This ties into what I said above, it makes it less applicable to your typical concealed carry gun fight with less extra mags on deck. I see what you are saying about carry leagues and things but again, how many mags are these guys showing up with and how many are they actually carrying. And what is repeatable when not competition and you're crapping your shorts like me and Brad and everyone else in a gun fight? A spare mag is a must in my opinion but rather than 3 or 4 extra mags there are some more valuable things I'd rather keep on me if I'll even carry that much stuff every day. Medical kit would take priority over a 3rd or 4th spare mag for example, and probably a knife to make space so I can get my gun out incase someone gets the jump on me and I can't get my "gun out" in the current unlucky position (we don't get to strike first). I personally met a cop who could not get to his gun and his head was being held underwater and the only thing that saved him was a knife he used to make space, get away and then go to his pistol. I think sometimes I get caught up in "shooting" and forget about the "fighting" is all I'm getting at.

Okay Coach, last thought.

IF it's like you're saying and it's in a "lull" that sounds to me like that's after you've scanned for more threats (at least in my mind) in which case you should top off and move on down the to do list. In this case we are comparing apples to apples. I'm not advocating keeping your gun in it's current condition for a long period of time. So say you assess no more threat, you scan all is well, you don't then go take cover to wait for the police to arrive or his other "buddy" to attempt to do you harm without reloading (topping off) because "you shoot till it's dry" I feel like the top-off portion takes care of that and we are just in semantics. However, if you are eluding to assess and then reload quickly that seems foolish because you are taking a magazine out of a working pistol to put a full one in when you have no idea if you are done shooting yet or not (assessing). That seems like poor practice IMO. You could always give that method a go in some force on force I suppose if you really think it's a good idea and see how it goes.

 

[rhino]

My carry plan for more than a decade was I was going to pull my gun and shoot it until it was empty or the threat was stopped. If I was empty and the threat was not stopped I would reload and shoot until the stop. If a body looks around he/she can find plenty of support for that mentality. If it is right or wrong is really not important. It was what I had decided to do. Why take a gun that is working apart in a gun fight? It does not make a lot of sense to do that.

There is talk and conjecture about a lull. If in a lull why not top the gun off. When I sit and contemplate that makes a lot of sense. What if a lull never happens? Keep shooting as long as possible then reload.

I go to the Range Master Tactical Conference a few times. I sit in on a variety of lectures and sessions. There are a few different or divergent philosophies on reloads. Darryl Bloke (I have no idea how he spells his name and I don't when the big bastard is not around) gave a lecture about the proactive reload. He said when he/they changed their training plan and practice their officers stopped running the guns dry in gunfights and he/they concluded that was a good thing. I remember writing that down in my notes and it resonated with me at the time as a gem of an idea at the time. That was in 2017 I believe.

In May I was re-united with a former wrestler from the late 1990's. Tom was a wrestler for me in 1995, 1996, 1997. He is the toughest person that I know and I know quite a few tough sons of *****es. He is currently in Marine Force Recon and is a master sergeant. He has had six combat deployments in the last 18 years. We were sitting around talking and room clearing came up. He gave me a one hour clinic on how to do it. It was very informative. One gem in the middle of that clinic was to keep the gun in "best possible condition". That struck me like a bolt of lighting and it fits with proactively reloading the gun.

Tom said that if he was clearing a house or dwelling and shot even 1 round in a room, that he would always change the magazine before proceeding to the next room. Therefore the gun would be in the best possible condition for whatever was found in the next room. He was as equipped as he could be for whatever loomed in the next room.

I teach a variety of classes and I teach in two different although similar fields. I teach competition pistol and I teach defensive pistol, and a lot of introductory pistol. I stand behind a ton of shooters and I watch a lot of them run dry during a drill and/stage/scenario when they should not run dry. If the shooters run dry in practice/ class/ competition/ training what do we expect to happen when it is for real?

Last week in the Carry League session I was running we were working on using cover/concealment. I incorporate the concept of keeping the gun in "best possible condition". For the first time ever. Not one single shooter ran dry in the middle of repetition. This was the largest carry league I have had in three years at Parabellum. Not one single person ran dry. That is a first. Making me think there is something to this concept that is significant.

In the past for example doing a figure 8 drill. Many people shoot the threats and then scan with only 1 round or no rounds in the gun. If you are scanning for additional threats and you find one. You will need enough rounds to deal with that threat.

This might be an area of your EDC to consider.

Thoughts?

When you introduce the potential for room clearing (and in our context it's going to be just one guy doing it), you're adding a whole new level of complexity. The more friends you have helping you, the more somewhat convenient opportunities you're going to have to reload when you choose rather than when you have to do it. In the unholy hell of clearing multiple rooms by yourself, there is no one to offer you respite. Assuming you survive an initial shooting encounter and take control of a space temporarily, it's an obvious time to reload whether you intend to remain put, advance, or withdraw. Essentially, you've solved one problem and what happens after that is another problem or set of problems.

"Best possible condition" is an interesting way to state it. The key is that circumstances will dictate what is possible, or rather what is prudent or reasonable. If I'm behind some good cover and I believe I have an opportunity to reload, I'll do it. On the other hand, if I hear some miscreant advancing toward me and/or I see a shadow or reflection that tells me my cover isn't going to effective much longer, I may have to go with what I have and hope I have enough rounds left to solve the next step in the series of problems.

The bottom line is that (unless something forces me to completely alter my lifestyle), I'm going to have the means to reload. That part of the equation is solved for me, unlike those who choose to more severely limit their on-person resources. When I will reload is going to have to be dictated by circumstances. Some will force me to reload when I have to reload (assuming I am still functional) and others may present situations where I would choose to top-off. In force-on-force training that included room clearing, I don't remember a situation where I ran dry while an immediate threat still existed. I do remember distinctly reloading as soon as I could on several occasions. I have an emotional problem with having a gun without the chamber loaded and a full charged magazine seated, so unless I have a reason why I can't or shouldn't reload when I have an opportunity, I'm going to do it.

Another factor is that guns that hold lots of bullets give you more options and are generally more forgiving of when/where you reload for obvious reasons. When I used to train with single stack guns exclusively, I never ended a drill without reloading before holstering unless required to do otherwise for a specific reason. When I switched to fat grip guns, it afforded the opportunity to make different choices to stress different skills. I've done classes where I reloaded at every opportunity regardless of the number of rounds fired and I've purposely refrained in order to practice emergency reloads under a little stress.

1. If shooting is necessary, keep shooting until the problem is solved or it won't shoot anymore.
2. If it won't shoot and slide is locked back, reload and resume. If a malfunction is obvious, go to next gun and resume.
3. When shooting is no longer necessary, assess and scan, then reload when it is prudent to do so (which may be during or after scanning). May reholster depending on the situation. I'm not going to remain with a gun that is not chamber loaded with a fully charged magazine any longer than is necessary. It's unlikely I will run out completely.

It should be emphasized that clearing rooms by yourself is for crazy people and people who have no better choice. The tactics are significantly different than they are when you have a partner and ever more divergent if you have a team who all know their assignments and what everyone else will be doing and where. There are a lot of guys who are highly skilled at this activity with a team that have done very little (if any) of the same thing with just one person. By the same reasoning, some people are squared away as an individual, but would be dangerous with a team because they've never had to deal with other people in the vicinity moving and shooting and will not be sufficiently familiar with those techniques and tactics.

 

[2A_Tom]

As to dropping the partial mag on the ground. In class with Coach I see that when he changes mags he removes the mag from the carrier, brings it to the gun, drops the mag from the gun into his support hand along with the full one, inserts the full one and returns the partial to the mag carrier.

This is something that I would need to do in slow motion about a million reps to get used to.

I have thought about it since my last class with him, but have not practiced it at all.

 

[churchmouse]

My understanding is that the most likely cause of a pistol malfunction is a magazine issue. That information could be wrong, but that’s why I carry a spare. Extra rounds are great, but probably not too likely to be needed in a self defense situation. Having a spare in case a malfunction arises is probably a more likely scenario.

To answer the OP, my thought is to shoot until empty or the threat stops in a self defense scenario. I would like to know the statistics of how often someone shoots through a modern high capacity magazine and needs the additional rounds. Now, if you’re still living in the land before television was invented and still carry a 1911, that may be a different story. Sorry, CM.

No your not.....

 

[churchmouse]

As to dropping the partial mag on the ground. In class with Coach I see that when he changes mags he removes the mag from the carrier, brings it to the gun, drops the mag from the gun into his support hand along with the full one, inserts the full one and returns the partial to the mag carrier.

This is something that I would need to do in slow motion about a million reps to get used to.

I have thought about it since my last class with him, but have not practiced it at all.

I figure Coach has done that drill at least as many times as you state is needed to put it in muscle memory.

 

[Randy Harris]

Thoughts?

You know my thoughts from the CRG2 class last summer in Charlestown. If you have fired any rounds at all your gun is no longer full. I'd rather not be standing around with a partially loaded gun if I can help it. If no one is shooting at you RIGHT NOW and you have the opportunity to make it full without endangering yourself then there's no reason not to. Whether you chose to do a "reload with retention" ( pull and stow the empty and insert new one) or a "speed reload" (eject empty and insert new one) is a matter of preference and while I prefer the reload with retention I can make an argument for either one depending on circumstances.

Will you NEED a reload in a "USA civilian world" street crime gunfight? Especially if you are carrying a 10+ round pistol? Probably not... but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. But I do know of one civilian world USA street fight where the good guy ended up "finding" a partially depleated mag in his back pocket after it was over where he actually had done a proactive reload and did not remember doing it......you are likely to do what you practice.

 

[rhino]

As to dropping the partial mag on the ground. In class with Coach I see that when he changes mags he removes the mag from the carrier, brings it to the gun, drops the mag from the gun into his support hand along with the full one, inserts the full one and returns the partial to the mag carrier.

This is something that I would need to do in slow motion about a million reps to get used to.

I have thought about it since my last class with him, but have not practiced it at all.

When did Coach do it that way vs. letting the mag fall to reload as quickly as possible?

How you reload is as context sensitive as when you reload. Reloading with retention or "tactical reloads" are great for reloading in an administrative situation or when you believe you have time to do it. It's also a good idea when you can't expect to be able to replace a mag in the short term and you're standing in knee deep water or some other bad situation.

 

[Coach]

Topping off, reloading, I am not worked up by the wording. I think many people are not properly equipped to reload and top off or whatever. I think this thread has put some light on that fact. They are all adults and free to make their own decisions and face whatever those decisions bring. Live and let live. I just see this as a that is covered in good Defensive Pistol classes like Randy teaches, like Tom Givens teachers, like John Murphy teaches, but I think it gets missed by a lot of people.

I think most street cops carry three magazines on their person, which will be 45 to 50 rounds. The marine I referred to carries as I understand things four magazines on his person with 25 rounds in each one. That is a lot of ammo compared to the guy with pocket pistol and 1 or not mags. But I would argue that EDC should have 50 rounds on their person. I carry only three magazines on me and two of them are in guns. I have 59 rounds on me at all times. The spare magazine will work in either gun. I have options. If we are concerned about safety and survival enough to carry a gun why not carry the other supporting materials such as a spare magazine?

Reloading or topping off can take on a life of its own. I think there is a time and a place for the emergency reload, the speed reload, and the reload with retention. If I am in a public place and I have to do some shooting, and I have not a clue how many rounds fired, or I am WRONG about how many rounds fired. Why not just top off, reload after an initial scan and then do a full scan.

What I know about "best possible condition" is this. A group of people never ran dry and that was a first. If those same people take that to heart and do not run dry in their future gunfight it seems like a good thing to me.

 

[rhino]

Topping off, reloading, I am not worked up by the wording. I think many people are not properly equipped to reload and top off or whatever. I think this thread has put some light on that fact. They are all adults and free to make their own decisions and face whatever those decisions bring. Live and let live. I just see this as a that is covered in good Defensive Pistol classes like Randy teaches, like Tom Givens teachers, like John Murphy teaches, but I think it gets missed by a lot of people.

I think most street cops carry three magazines on their person, which will be 45 to 50 rounds. The marine I referred to carries as I understand things four magazines on his person with 25 rounds in each one. That is a lot of ammo compared to the guy with pocket pistol and 1 or not mags. But I would argue that EDC should have 50 rounds on their person. I carry only three magazines on me and two of them are in guns. I have 59 rounds on me at all times. The spare magazine will work in either gun. I have options. If we are concerned about safety and survival enough to carry a gun why not carry the other supporting materials such as a spare magazine?

Reloading or topping off can take on a life of its own. I think there is a time and a place for the emergency reload, the speed reload, and the reload with retention. If I am in a public place and I have to do some shooting, and I have not a clue how many rounds fired, or I am WRONG about how many rounds fired. Why not just top off, reload after an initial scan and then do a full scan.

What I know about "best possible condition" is this. A group of people never ran dry and that was a first. If those same people take that to heart and do not run dry in their future gunfight it seems like a good thing to me.

Reasonable!

I will admit that when I am at home in my jammies, I only have 48+1 rounds on my person. The gun has the same 18+1 as when I'm out and about, but the spares I carry when I'm not dressed to go out or I am dressed for the gym are 15 rounds each.

 

[Bfish]

Topping off, reloading, I am not worked up by the wording. I think many people are not properly equipped to reload and top off or whatever. I think this thread has put some light on that fact. They are all adults and free to make their own decisions and face whatever those decisions bring. Live and let live. I just see this as a that is covered in good Defensive Pistol classes like Randy teaches, like Tom Givens teachers, like John Murphy teaches, but I think it gets missed by a lot of people.

I think most street cops carry three magazines on their person, which will be 45 to 50 rounds. The marine I referred to carries as I understand things four magazines on his person with 25 rounds in each one. That is a lot of ammo compared to the guy with pocket pistol and 1 or not mags. But I would argue that EDC should have 50 rounds on their person. I carry only three magazines on me and two of them are in guns. I have 59 rounds on me at all times. The spare magazine will work in either gun. I have options. If we are concerned about safety and survival enough to carry a gun why not carry the other supporting materials such as a spare magazine?

Reloading or topping off can take on a life of its own. I think there is a time and a place for the emergency reload, the speed reload, and the reload with retention. If I am in a public place and I have to do some shooting, and I have not a clue how many rounds fired, or I am WRONG about how many rounds fired. Why not just top off, reload after an initial scan and then do a full scan.

What I know about "best possible condition" is this. A group of people never ran dry and that was a first. If those same people take that to heart and do not run dry in their future gunfight it seems like a good thing to me.

Yeah, I think if you are putting the effort and time in that you are (I have kept up with you in the dry fire thread) and carrying as much ammo as you are it's probably a great approach. I've never trained with the instructors you mentioned, but it sounds like I should. Thanks again for posting these threads, you do a great job at getting me to think more.

 

[Coach]

Yeah, I think if you are putting the effort and time in that you are (I have kept up with you in the dry fire thread) and carrying as much ammo as you are it's probably a great approach. I've never trained with the instructors you mentioned, but it sounds like I should. Thanks again for posting these threads, you do a great job at getting me to think more.

John Murphy will be back at the Riley Conservation Club in April 2020. I want to get Randy Harris up here at some point as well.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Don’t EDC lots of aux ammo. Live by the code of if you can’t do it in 5 or 6 you have lost the fight.

 

[Coach]

Just don't want to die for a lack of shooting back. I still have three people counting on me being around for a while. If it were just me this entire life conversation would be different. My two kids have saved peoples lives and me a lot of jail time or worse.

 

[rhino]

Don’t EDC lots of aux ammo. Live by the code of if you can’t do it in 5 or 6 you have lost the fight.

Good luck!

 

[Trapper Jim]

Good luck!

Just don't wanna be loaded down with equipment when the cancer. heart attack, diabetes, kidney failure or pneumonia gets me.

 

[Coach]

A little exercise and weight training from the spare ammo could help with some of that.

 

[Trapper Jim]

A little exercise and weight training from the spare ammo could help with some of that.

 

[jsharmon7]

Just don't wanna be loaded down with equipment when the cancer. heart attack, diabetes, kidney failure or pneumonia gets me.

What if I told you it was possible to stay in shape AND carry a spare magazine, and that the two aren’t mutually exclusive?